Any script writers here? Co-writing is bringing up the worst in me.

[ishallconquerthat]

I have recently written a book (my first one, YA), and now have the opportunity to write a TV script proposal with a friend who is a real script writer (which means real producers - who know him - will read it, something that would never happen if I've written something by myself). The script is not for the UK.

However, this whole collaborative creative work is bringing up my worst side. I feel insecure, I don't want to go on, I think it's not working out.

I'm a horrible team worker. I never managed to keep an office job for too long because of that. My best work has been done by myself or - as a journalist - working with an editor and nothing more.

I know I can (could) write a script. But I feel intimidated, I have never done anything like that for "real" TV. My way of working is not what "real" professionals do. I just feel like a toddler, angry at everything and wanting to curl up in a ball - or throw a tantrum at my limitations. I feel I'll never break into the market, and the whole proposal thing won't work out anyway. We don't have a deadline, so I said I'd think about the whole thing for a few days before I go on.

OF COURSE I know I'm pathetic.

But I don't know what to do. I'm trying to act like a professional. Heck, I can't even act like and adult, let alone a professional!

Any comments will be very welcome. I don't have anyone to talk about that IRL because... well... because it's too embarrassing to even tell it to anyone. I should be a capable professional, FFS.

Script writing is collaborative.

Even if you were to write the initial pitch yourself, thereafter the process is a team effort. Anyone and everyone will have a view and often a say.

That is quite simply the deal. If that's not a process you can stomach ( and your reaction to even considering it seems a bit extreme, so I'd hazard that it's not) then say no.

Out of interest how have you reacted to input on your novel? Surely your agent/editor etc have made some comment? The editing process is collaborative, no?

Hi Carl thanks a lot for taking the time to respond!

First I'll answer the question about the novel. I published it independently, so I didn't have an agent and editor BUT I had input from quite a few people, friends who work in the area and who commented on the novel, and they were not always nice and complimentary. The showed me lots of weaknesses in the novel and I worked on that.

I have worked as a journalist for several years, and I have no problem with editors changing my work or pointing out things and I'm almost always happy to rework and rewrite. (what I want to say is that I'm not a diva :)

I believe the biggest difference in these cases is that the roles are clearly defined. I write, they critique or edit. And it works fine. It's sharing the role of the writer that is being hard.

Having said that, I'm much better today. I've started this thread in a bad day, and I offloaded here precisely not to say any of those things to my friend (because I want him to thing I'm a reasonably sane person).

I'm struggling with the whole script thing, BUT...

1 - Struggling is just part of achieving something, and I don't want to give up on it just now. Writing a novel was a struggle too, and in the end I did it. (and hopefully will do again)

2 - I need to work and earn some money. Script writing is a way to earn a living for many novel writers. If it doesn't work out I'll have to find a job doing much worse and more boring things, so I'm not ready to give up on that right now.

Any advice on how to smooth that will be very welcome.

My friend and I have different ways of working. He's been working on that for many years. He studied script writing. He does it the "professional" way (for lack of a better word).

I've been always working by myself, so I take much longer, I spend much more time building things in my head, developing characters, etc etc. I'm a "professional" journalist, but I don't consider myself a professional fiction writer.

But this friend is the only person who wants to write with me, so I really can't be picky :)

And he IS good. It's just that we have to find a way to make it work. (as we would have if we had been teamed together by a producer or working together in a project anyway).

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Well if you really want to make it work then here's my two penneth.

You need to agree a process.

Script writing is very different to novel writing. It's far more structured for one thing.

So you and your co-writer must agree a methodology. Personally, I would simply adopt the pro writer's if it were me. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

If there's anything that really does not work for you, then speak up, but broadly i would tend to use it, especially if it has a successful track record.

I would also set out a proper timetable of who is going to do what by when. It's beyond frustrating when co writers don't produce what they've said they will within reasonable time frames. Set those time frames so that everyone has proper expectations.

And like any other project let everyone know in good time if you're struggling or running late.

I would also make it clear which of you has specific roles for what. This prevents doubling up and, worse, gaps where you each thought the other one had it.

Finally, be realistic. Not all writing partnerships work. Part ways rather than fall out. I've had some terrible collaborations and some brilliant ones.

If you want any specific advice on how I've set things up in the past, do ask. I'll tell you what I can.

My advice is to ask your GP to write a prescription for a shed load of valium should your novel/script ever get produced and placed into the hands of a director...

cowgirls I don't have valium, but I have wine. And I'm not that inept all the time, believe me ;)

Carl I welcome all the advice you can give me.

I'd love to know, from your experience, how different it is to write a novel and a script (because I really don't know). Everything you said about structure was really useful. Is script writing that much more structured? Is it the only way to do it?

I will pass your suggestions on to my friend on Monday, but if you could tell me more about the transition from novel writer to script writer, I would appreciate enormously.

Thanks a lot!

I haven't written a novel but to my mind the difference is the a novel is an absolute finished article. The author gets to say everything they want to say about the story and the characters within it. A script is a blueprint. There are many people who will put their own interpretation onto the script to make it look the way that they think it should be seen, not least the director. This explains why writers get paid peanuts compared to directors.

OP I'm happy to pass on what I can, but obviously this is only my own experience and no way intended to be cast in stone.

I think, well I know because my agent has always said so, that my novels are all very filmatic.

Not a conscious decision on my part. Possibly borne of the fact that I love telly and film as much as I love books, maybe more.

My method for writing a novel is pretty rigorous ( or at least it used to be, I think I've now imprinted it into my subconscious so I still do it, but in a less obvious fashion).

I choose a structure in advance. I work out a basic plot in advance. Then I plan each scene on a sheet of A4, stating who where what and anything else I can see.

When that's done I write the novel.

I also tend to write series fiction so I've learned ( the hard way) to keep things back and to sow seeds, ready to sprout in the next book. And most of all not to plant things that will be a complete balls ache to deal with in the sequels!

So when I decided to make the transition to script writing, the method was half way there ( as opposed to lots of novelists who write much more organically- which doesn't lend itself to scriptwriting. At all.)

My first commissions were for an existing show and this is fab training. Basically the characters already live and the show runners have decided what's going to happen. The writer's job is to make that interesting, within timed parameters.

When I came to write original stuff, I imported that way of working. And I found it was pretty much standard for script writers.

Work out who your people are. What they're going to do. What the show is about thematically. Do this way way before you even open Final Draft ( I'm still using the 09 version).

Then draft your story beats. I do it by hand. I think there's a function in FD but I prefer to scribble it down.

Once you're satisfied with the beats, draft the scenes around them. Again I do this on paper.

When you finally have all the scenes drafted, check then carefully. You might need to reduce the number of sets you've used. Or actors. Look at your transitions. Check that they work.

Now you can start on your script.
Pick up your first A4 sheet or index card or whatever you used and work out how you can adapt it using the least possible time and words.

Rinse and repeat.

As I say, this is just how I do it.

And yes, as cowgirl says, many people have an input in a script.

The producers, the money, the script editor, the director, the show runner. Everyone had a view which will involve notes and rewrites.

cowgirl good point about the script being a blueprint. The point is, I deal fine with other people's input in my work - once I've done it. Even if it's just a first draft.

What is being incredibly hard is to create this first draft, from zero, with someone.

Perhaps I could just write a short story and then adapt it to a script. This friend and I are working on a comic that was born this way. But then it would be a long an convoluted way to get to the end, and I don't like the idea of taking such a detour...

Carl I think I'm one of the writers who write "organically". Partly, I'm sure, due to my lack of experience.

I like to write bits of dialogue first, so I can have a feel for the characters, and then organise the scenes around the dialogues or the interactions. Is this an insane way to work in a script?

Should I just keep all my "organic/emotional/intuitive" shit for my books and do the script the "normal" way? Is it the only way?

carl by the way, if you don't mind another question, how would you co-write a script with someone, following the steps you described? How would the collaboration/task-sharing work?

Nothing to add but just placemarking because I (as someone who works in finance) find this fascinating. Kudos to all of you - I am in awe of anyone who can write a book or a script.

To be honest, dialogue would be the very last thing I would include in the script.

The first draft of any scene ( which as I say I hand write) for me will include who, what, where, when and why.

I'll ask myself what I'm trying to do with that scene. Why does it matter? What's it really about?

I'll visualise that scene in many ways to try to answer those questions. And if possible I will attempt to do it visually, without dialogue.

Dialogue will be my last resort. And then I'll use as little as possible.

That's not to say my characters don't chat to me. They do. Generally, I'll have their voices down pat. But none of that chatter earns its place in the script. Or rarely.

Is it possible to use other methods? I'm sure it is. No doubt some hugely successful writers just turn on their PCs and dive into the first draft. But I really wouldn't recommend it for a first attempt. You'll just end up with something baggy. Some great scenes here and there but no shape.

And scripts need shape far more than novels (which in my view need shape too - but there's more room for manoeuvre).

How to set up a system of co writing like this? Well I can tell you how it's worked for me before.

We spent a long time discussing what the show was. And perhaps more importantly what it wasn't. Collaborations have come unstuck before when we didn't do this in sufficient detail. Essentially we ended up with one us designing a skirt and the other person a pair of trousers IYSWIM?

I'd really recommend exchanging written documents of what each of you think the show is about and not about. Then you can compare and iron out any inconsistencies.

One big fat failure could have been avoided if early on we'd identified whose story it was.

We then agreed the story beats. Maybe draft a beat sheet each and exchange to find common ground. Or give one person the responsibility and the other reply to it. I've done it both ways.

Next we each took a beat and went away and drafted a card/sheet for it. Then we gave each other extensive notes on them and redrafted until we had a set of cards/sheets covering all the beats.

We then allotted the surrounding scenes between us and did the same thing.

Then we carved up the script to draft based on the cards/sheets.

Then we gave each other extensive notes and went away and redrafted our scenes.

It's tough. You have to have complete faith in your co writers notes based on a mutual agreement of what you're trying to achieve.

It's very interesting to hear how you co-write, Carl. I try to write in a very disciplined fashion but it doesn't always work out that way. For me, I just try not to get too hung up on a fixed idea on the story because the chances are it will change a million times before it's ready I give up on it in an exhausted heap Obviously I have to know where it's going and roughly speaking, how I am going to get there before any of the interesting stuff happens.
To be honest, unless it was somebody I really wanted to work with I would find co-writing exhausting. It's a hugely collaborative process in any event and I enjoy that aspect of it, probably because of the people I have been able to work with, but I think for me, at this stage, co-writing wouldn't be for me. I admire your patience Carl.

To be fair not all my collaborations have worked out perfectly!

Two stalled early on in the process in terms of how far we actually got although a lot of time was wasted ( which pissed me right off). Another ended when we couldn't agree on how to draft the actual script.

I'm currently involved in two collaborations which are going well.

One is with a novice. And he has simply followed my lead so it's been easy. Even though we're adapting his original work ( an unpublished novel) he's very open to all my suggestions. And he's let me push the timetable.

The second is with a very successful writer who wants to spend more time directing.
She approached me (hugely flattering) and said I want to direct something you wrote ( as a play). Basically I'm doing the writing of all the documents and she's giving notes. She literally does not have time to write ( given her other commitments).

We're really enjoying the process and we're both getting something out of it. Her, a chance to direct something she already knows she likes with her input from the get go. Me, a definite production ( because she's had so many successful projects, getting the green light will be relatively easy).

That said, I still work on solo projects too. Got to have a lot of potential stuff doing the rounds in this game, no? So many projects end up rejected or in development hell.

I should also say that I still put myself forward to write on existing shows too.

What are you working on cow?

It's definitely a numbers game Carl and it's good to be versatile, as you clearly are. As for development hell, I'm a big fan of Jack Rosenthal, who spoke about the scripts he had written as 'gently rotting' on the shelves of producers.

I'll pm you with more details of what I'm doing.

To everyone, thanks a lot. You have no idea how much you have helped me.

Carl one question: when you say you have the characters' voices down pat, do you mean you write dialogues for them as supporting documents? Or you just have their voices clear in your mind?

It seems that I have to study a bit more, and convince my friend to lead the process.

He approached me in a similar way as your director friend - he said he would like to develop a story of mine, but I don't have any stories that we could use (they are mostly sci fi or supernatural stuff that would be too expensive to film). So, we decided to think of something together, and that's where I got stuck.

I find and develop character voices in the same way, whether I'm writing novels, scripts or plays.

I run endless scenes with them in my head. Often I say them out loud.
Many of these scenes have nothing to do with the actually piece I'm working on. I just need to get them doing all manner of stuff.

That's fascinating, carl. I'll try that. Do you just imagine a random situation (like being in a shop with a rude salesperson, as in a writing exercise) and go from there? Isn't it a bit time consuming? (Or maybe it gets quicker with time?)

The BBC Writersroom has a lot of good advice on scriptwriting. Look for the Writers' Lab section, which includes examples of exercises such as the type of thing Carl has mentioned.

I tend to imagine them in fairly dramatic situations; meeting or losing the love of their lives, revealing something shockingly painful, being forced into a violent situation etc

But then my work isn't kitchen sink stuff (no disrespect here, it's just not my arena).

It is time consuming, but then I just do it all the time. I live far too much time in my own head than is strictly healthy. I'm an only child...

cowgirls I will do it, thanks for the suggestion! (it's been ages since the last time I've been on the BBC writers room. Probably since my last attempt of writing scripts...)

carl I live a lot of time in my own head, but it looks like your time in your head is way more productive :) I will try your way, and see if it helps.

Thanks a lot to everyone who commented. It's great to know how more experienced people do it.

How's the script writing coming along?

Hi jersey we're still struggling :)

We are trying to find a way that works. The point is: he wants me to lead creatively, and I want him to lead the process. Apparently that is a terrible idea (I just got stuck). I want him to lead everything, as I don't consider myself a script writer (and that was carl's wise suggestion).

So we plan to resume things soon (as each of us have a few other things going on these weeks). Hopefully it will work out better. I'd hate to miss this opportunity. (watch this spot) ;)

As always, advice is welcome. The posts on this thread helped a lot, so if anyone has anything to say, please do it.

It's a wonderful feeling, ISCT, when someone other than ourselves feels that we are capable of doing something that takes us out of our comfort zone. Have faith in your creativity and leave the "properness" of script writing to your partner.

Maybe... "vulnerability" is the emotion to start with as you create the story. Sit with this idea for a bit, if at any point your eyebrows raise,
then get that pen to paper. Have fun. Peace, Jersey