Are London Irish really Irish ?

[OpheliaWasntMad]

What do people born in Ireland think?

Do you mean the rugby team or the diaspora?

Shane McGowan was London Irish born in UK considered himself Irish. Parents were Irish. Demonstrably drew inspiration from Irish culture and contributed in huge amounts with his music
Ed Sheeran born Uk to Irish parents, strong Irish connections evident in his music too
upbringing,culture,habits reinforce Irishness and sense of connection.

I work with a lot of Irish people, but they were born in London to Irish parents, making them British.

I obviously get that if you are born in uk,you’re a Brit but nonetheless if your raised by Irish parents,Irish habits etc understandably you feel Irish. It is more complicated than location of birth.Suppose that why it interesting and debated. Love the Irish centre Murray Sq btw

These debates always go on and on but you just need to specify if you mean descent , culture or nationality. Yes to Irish descent then and no to nationality (except nationalities probably yes because every British Irish person I know has dual nationality).
Culture is more nuanced. It’s like identity as it can be chosen, can be fake.
Consider Americans who call themselves Irish. They are not by nationality. They may be by descent in varying degrees. It’s culture they mean. Whatever they choose to identify with, what their forebears may have passed on, whatever people around them have told them is Irish. It may be nonsense but culture and identity are obsessions these days.

Irish descent

My DH grew up in London (as did his parents) but both sets of grandparents were born and grew up in Ireland. DH considers himself Irish but would tick British on a form. Our surname is Irish and our DC have Irish names.

If both your parents are irish but you were born in England arenyou Irish? You only have Irish blood lol. My sister is like this and I do think she's possibly right. We have a cousin lives close to me and her busnad is polish so their children are half Polish half Irish due to their dad?

Culturally I feel way more Irish than English. Every single relative is in Ireland, when my parents divorced my dad moved back to Dublin so we visited frequently growing up. Lived in an immigrant heavy part of London with lots of Irish people & went to Catholic schools so lots of my friends are 2nd gen. I have an Irish passport particularly important since Brexit. Although maybe it’s just a 2nd generation thing as I have lots of friends who have immigrant parents from all over the world.

London Irish - just like Sydney Irish or Boston Irish - are an Irish tribe, as different to each other as to children reared in Ireland.
Many will have done Irish dancing, played Gaelic games, attended Catholic schools, spent summers with granny in Ireland and have Irish passports. They feel Irish.
We are one of the few nationalities who look down on the diaspora, despite many having to leave through economic necessity right up to the late 90s. We owe them and their kids an identity at least.

often you are brought up to be Irish if you live in England because of the history - we can’t be associated with the Union Jack, the poppy, the Queen, Maggie Thatcher (this is looking back on my own upbringing)

if our clothes were red white and blue (by chance eg you have a blue and white t shirt on you were told to take the red coat off)

they were difficult years in the 70s and 80s - I think that’s why people home onto their Irish identity

I live in London now. There's a mix of people here who consider themselves to be Irish or have Irish heritage. Some were born & brought up in Ireland. Some have 2 Irish parents but have always lived in the UK themselves. Some have only 1 Irish parent.

A huge proportion of people in London have roots in more than one culture or nation. The question 'where are you from?' does not elicit a one-word answer!

Personally, I don't think of identity as an on-off switch, it's nuanced. Yes, most would laugh at Americans who call themselves Irish after 5 generations or more in the US, and most would consider someone who emigrated from Ireland as a teen to still be Irish, but there's a huge swathe of people in between.

Ireland is very generous with citizenship (compared to a lot of countries), but conversely very tight on things like voting, access to public funds etc.

Bottom line is: I don't want to police other people's complicated cultural identities. Let people call themselves what they want, within reason. Access to actual benefits of those countries is regulated.

'Bottom line is: I don't want to police other people's complicated cultural identities. Let people call themselves what they want, within reason.'

That's a very fair and reasonable way of looking at it. And it really is complicated. I grew up in Ireland, moved to the UK when I was 20 and have lived here (mostly in England) for 25 years. Irish parents, entire family is Irish, but the UK has always felt like home to me since I've been here, partly because of a complex relationship with my own family, so I really value the distance between us. I have dual nationality now and I'm proud to be a British citizen. So I'm very much Irish on paper but also British by choice!

I think it's more a London/American thing to call yourself Irish. I was born in England and I am English with an Irish name. In Ireland I'm treated as English (and get low level aggro, which is ridiculous but hey).

Obviously when I go home to Manchester I'm in a life with other Irish names, the church, all of us knowing from the Irish club as kids, singing the songs, eating the food, having detailed opinions about counties in Ireland. But in Manchester so are a lot of people! It's a normal way to be English. It's actually not a normal way to be Irish. To be Irish in Ireland is not a minority position.

Also I think I identify with being a Londoner much more than being English because it’s so different. My parents left Ireland for work & were very keen to keep some Irishness hence the dancing, tin whistle lessons, going big at Halloween. The language lessons didn’t last long though!

To be Irish in Ireland is not a minority position.

Unless you’re from Northern Ireland! I’m from NI but have lived in London for the past 18 years, so now have spent equal time in England and NI.

DH has an Irish grandfather so has a passport, but is English. Our 2 kids have Irish names and I very much consider them to be both Irish and British.

My siblings and I all have Gaelic names spelt the traditional ways.

Equally my friends who have Indian, French, Polish, Cameroon parents identify with their parents culture.

Yeah that's true @harrietm87 .

And I do think you're right about the 80s, @Spagettifunctional . We were more Irish before the GFA because of the tension.

I remember after Warrington a boy at orchestra asking me if my dad was in the IRA! With this horrible smirk on his face. My gentle dad in the IRA. I just stared at him. I remember just staring at him in silence, feeling like I was on a rock in the wide ocean, different and lonely.

I would describe myself as having Irish heritage but I’m not Irish, despite growing up in an area with many Irish people and one Irish parent. I would describe myself as English, rather than British. There were definitely diasporic traditions growing up, some of which I engaged in, such as religion, Irish dancing, the local district associations, food and socialising with other Irish adults whose children were born in the UK. However, I haven’t got the shared culture of those of my extended family who were brought up in Ireland. I felt very uncomfortable as a child with some views that I heard being expressed by Irish visitors, especially around racism. I was also very aware of racism and prejudice towards Irish people, in a time where Irish jokes were normalised by the likes of Jim Davidson and my parents’ generation had stories of the ‘No blacks, no Irish, no dogs’ signs when they tried to find accommodation in cities such as London in the 1960s and 1960s. My dad would get us to ask for things in shops and for directions, probably because he didn’t want people to hear his accent.

As PPs have noted, there would always be a spike in anti-Irish sentiment after bombings, such as Birmingham, Oxford St and Harrods in the 1970s and 1980s.

Anyone with Irish citizenship is Irish.

Culturally, those who grow up abroad will have a different flavour of Irishness to those of us who grow up in Ireland - but there's plenty of different flavours of Irishness in Ireland anyway and that's only increasing with immigration which is a good thing too.

I live in NI now and many of my friends are Irish but their Irish upbringing was very different to mine - no Irish, no The Den, no Toy Show, no leaving cert. They're still Irish though. Similar for those who grow up abroad.

I know someone who was always sneered at those with English accents calling themselves Irish. Now that's his children his views have shifted.

OP posting a one line question on a complicated issue and disappearing could be seen as stirring. Perhaps you'd like to tell us your own views.

Sorry for disappearing.. that wasn’t intentional.
Ive read through all the responses. Some really balanced helpful replies including yours.

My view - I’m London Irish, both parents Irish have an Irish passport, holiday in Ireland, learnt Irish dancing as a child , my parents played Irish “show band” music at home ( and Wolfe Tones etc)
So - in London I feel very Irish - very different from English friends - and that is my identity.
But when I’m in Ireland I don’t feel Irish and Irish people don’t seem to see me as Irish ( primarily because of the accent I think )

So - it’s complicated. Is an accent a really important part of identity?

I just wondered what Irish people felt.

I remember those spikes in anti Irish sentiment. Tough times .
My parents had it tough when they first came in the 1960’s. That’s why they stuck together- went to their own dance halls, pubs etc
Catholic schools/ churches were full of Irish so we all lived in our own little bubble of Ireland in London . But I think our version of Ireland was probably our parents version - ie outdated and frozen in the past

I think it must be difficult growing up as the child of immigrants - trying to assimilate into a different culture to that of your parents. And so many of the Irish people who emigrated didn't do so out of choice, but out of economic necessity.

I've no direct experience of this, but my understanding is that many of the Irish who emigrated in the '50s, '60s, '70s etc. retained very close links to Ireland. They attended Catholic churches, they were members of Irish clubs, they drank in Irish pubs, their children often attended Catholic schools and were signed up to Irish dance classes or played Gaelic sports. They celebrated St. Patrick's Day. London was close enough to Ireland to allow for regular visits home. Their children were raised in the Irish culture, albeit in a different country.

I'm not sure what the experience is like for the children of Irish emigrants in London these days.

Anyway, I'm not in the business of challenging people about their nationality - whether that's someone whose ancestors emigrated from Ireland to the US in the 19th century or someone who emigrated to Ireland from another country 10 years ago.

I have an English friend who moved to Ireland as an adult. She said at this point she no longer feels fully English but also doesn't feel fully Irish.

I feel so sorry for our parents generation. My dad, like yours , is gentle. He is shy and unassuming but very well read and thoughtful and if he was born at a later time he would have gone to a great university and had a professional job. Instead he had a manual job in a country where people with his accent were stereotyped. Its very hurtful to think of
(On the plus side - he made a very good living in the end and had a great community of friends- many English as well as other cultures)

My friend was born in UK to irish parents. Went to Catholic school, spent summers in Ireland etc
She said in Ireland they would be treated as English- she remembers other kids shouting at them in an anti British way and in the uk she was treated as Irish and so felt that she never quite fitted in anywhere.