Surrogacy Bill In Ireland

[myflightiscancelled]

Anyone else following?

It’s a positive step to regulate fertility treatments. They plan to have further legislation to manage surrogates.
I really don’t know how they can regulate this. I find it incredibly sad that people pay someone to have a baby. So many babies are born and needing adoption, why not go down this road, it’s even legal!!
The case in Dublin with Gourounlian and Dowling is incredibly disturbing. It’s just not right.

Buying women's bodies to breed babies, removing babies from their birth mother, disregarding everything we know about the traumas that have come from hiding information from adopted people about their biological parents ... dressing this up as progressive is a monumental scam.

If it wasn't problematic they'd legislate to allow Irish women to be bought for breeding purposes. But they won't. It isn't ok for Irish women, just for "other women".

It is just disgusting.

Really not looking for a fight but genuinely curious what is so disturbing about the Dowling Gourounlian case?

There are very few children in Ireland put up for adoption and adopting from abroad is extremely difficult and expensive. Being accepted as parents for adoption isn't a given for everyone either

I'm not in favour of commercial surrogacy but adoption isn't always the answer.

Some day, people will look back in horror at what we have done. That a country which is still coming to terms with the repercussions of the Magdalen Laundries, can legalize the purchase of babies, the exploitation of poor women by wealthy couples; the removal of a newborn from
its mother, when we do not even allow dog breeders to do this - I despair every day for this country.

I wish I still believed in hell, so I could comfort myself with the thought that every TD who voted for this was on their way there.

I edited my original post and realise now I deleted most of it!! The AHR bill was long over due, it’s unfortunate it got mixed up with surrogacy . To my mind they should legislate to regularise the situation of children already born through surrogacy as that is in the best interests of the child. But would prefer a ban.

I am just surprised about lack of media coverage. Are Irish people really on board with this?

People can hold views on surrogacy while appreciating that legal recognition is necessary for the children here today who were born by surrogacy.

I don't understand the hate that is thrown on family surrogacy which to me is ethical. I would happily have carried my siblings baby if they were unable.

I have significant issues with commercial surrogacy. In my opinion there is significant differences.

I haven’t read the bill but I have heard that it makes commercial surrogacy illegal? Like other posters, I have no problem with altruistic surrogacy but when surrrogacy agencies become involved, it is always exploitative.

As far as I am aware it only bans commercial surrogacy in Ireland. You can still exploit vulnerable women abroad.

Irish law cant control other jurisdictions? This is the problem, the law would need to be local not national.

Regardless, we can not leave children in legal limbo and it is a disgrace that they have been up to now. These children require legal recognition as citizens and parental relationships for their protection.

No, it can't. However, it can decide whether to recognise the outcome of other countries' law. For children who are already born and are in the country, then yes, as a humanitarian gesture, they should be recognised. I would even go so far as to say children already conceived should get that recognition. However, we should have legislation stating that any children born through commercial surrogacy after a certain date will not get that legal recognition. And yes, I know people would lie and claim it was altruistic but I'm sure there are ways to require proof of altruism.

There is no way Ireland will pass such a law. You cant have a law saying the biological child of a person doesn't have access to the Irish law protection and citizenship by how they were conceived!

All that will do is end up with illegal adoption jinks to get around it. The law needs to protect children. The morality issues are not the laws concern - that is societal and behavioural. Ireland is walking a very fine line in not protecting her youngest most vulnerable citizens and it really needs to do better - history is not kind to those who treat innocent children so despicably.

Commercial Surrogacy is a completely separate issue and can only be dealt with in the host country. This takes social pressure and local laws.

I know. I can't see it happening but I know a few countries have been looking at laws of that nature (Italy is one I think).

However, the law would not generally be removing rights from a biological child of an Irish person. If the sperm came from the male person commissioning the child, they can be on the birth cert and the child has all the rights associated with being a child of an Irish citizen. In an awful lot of surrogacies, the egg is a donor egg so not genetically related to the commissioning person/couple.

@OchonAgusOchonOh there is no way a law like that would ever fly in Ireland. And to be honest I find it absolutely disgusting to inflict legal abandonment on children who have no say in how they got here.

Given the political issues in Italy I doubt if this is anywhere near a priority for the next few years and by then I fully expect a European move to use the anti trafficking legislation to control abusive situations.

So instead let's encourage exploitation of vulnerable women and the commodification of babies by making it as easy as possible for those commissioning babies and exploiting vulnerable women.

Again, the children are not being inflicted with legal abandonment as the commissioning male is generally the genetic father. The current legislation is fast-tracking parental rights for the commissioning party who is not genetically related to the child.

To answer your question I'm not following it all. It's not very high profile in the media. I'll dig further after this conversation though!

Commerical surrogacy sounds uncomfortably similar to the days the nuns sold babies to wealthy foreigners.

The protection of innocent children born in surrogacy is not equal to adults who have the remit of the law in their country.

Yes vulnerable people need to be protected and that will likely come about in the form of agreed surrogacy guidelines in Europe.

but the suggestion that children who may not be genetically linked are abandoned legally from citizenship is sickening. It resonates at not protecting the most vulnerable innocent children. Ireland needs to protect her most vulnerable.

Oh, and the new legislation is already restrictive in terms of who can be granted parental rights. One of the criteria is that it must not be commercial surrogacy and only reasonable expenses can be paid. The surrogacy can only take place in a restricted list of countries and the child must be the genetic child of one of those commissioning the baby and must not use the egg of the surrogate mother.

The new legislation does that. One of the commissioning parties must be a genetic parent of the child.

Yes, I agree we need to protect children but legalising the trafficking of babies is not the way to do it.

My point was protection must also be extended to children who do not genetic linkage. Which plenty of children are due to many reasons.

The same as children who may be conceived and carried by a mother but isn't genetically linked. Sorry I assumed my point was clear I stated where no genetic linkage.

Surrogacy is illegal in all other Eu countries. I don’t believe they allow citizens to buy babies abroad and take them home as citizens.

I don’t agree with buying babies - it should all be illegal.

https://infogram.com/surrogacy-laws-1h9j6qw0q8856gz.
No it's not.

I was really shocked by how pro surrogacy my Irish in laws were recently. My SIL started telling me about Chris de Burgs (daughter? I think) as this whole beautiful good news story and she was very unsettled by my voicing my horror at surrogacy, then MIL reacted the same way and scolded me for being horrible about ‘the poor woman’. Nothing about the poor woman she paid to grow a baby for her. I don’t know if this was representative in Ireland but I felt this was the first time either had been exposed to any dissenting view from the narrative that surrogacy is a wonderful thing.

Why are you surprised a different culture has a different perspective? Ireland isn't little Britain.

I don't think surrogacy is wrong, I do think exploitation is horrendous. I think the most realistic action to secure protection of the perspective parents the surrogate and ultimately the baby, is international agreements similar to adoption.

I know Ireland isn’t little Britain ffs! I’m surprised because my in laws are great people and that I could tell that they had been fed a narrative. I’ve met people here in Scotland who surprise me with this too. I don’t see how you can divorce surrogacy from exploitation.