Feeling torn - UK / Ireland

[Mumofone1xx]

Hi all, I am a single mum with a 6 year old and we live in South Yorkshire. I have lived in both England and Ireland throughout my life, originally from South England though.
I'm coming to the end of my degree and currently feeling really stuck. I always thought id stay here when i finished uni, but im having this pull towards Ireland too. My mum and her side of the family live there and my daughter's dad moved back when we separated.

Pros of UK for me:

• my sister and nephew live close who we are really close to, with another baby on the way
• so much cheaper!
• nhs
• great for Vegans (we are vegan)
• I have a grad scheme lined up and more job opportunities in general
• Great public transport

Cons:

• feeling lonely since my sister moved to other side of the city and many friends I made at uni have gone travelling/probably won't be moving back
• really missing my mum and wish we lived closer (a big one for me)

Pros of Ireland:

• my mum is there
• my daughters dad and his family are there
• ex's mum there too (we are both close with her)
• would have a wider support network in terms of family (which I feel would be really helpful right now)
• slower pace of life, more countryside

Cons:

• we would really miss my sister and nephew. My daughter and nephew are inseparable
• daughter is settled in school here
• Ireland is so expensive!
• nowhere to rent, looking at kilkenny area
• much less job opportunities in my field (environmental science)
• no nhs
• lack of public transport, I really struggled with that as a teenager and dont want that for my daughter growing up
• No friends there, would be a huge change
• we are not religious and i really wouldnt want my daughter going to a religous school (which they all seem to be)

I know only I can make the decision. But would love some advice from anyone that has moved, or how people cope as single parents in Ireland. Feeling very torn at the moment and can't talk to family about it without getting hopes up or upsetting them.
Sorry for the rant. Can anyone help me brainstorm?

Ireland isn't going anywhere, take up the job, get some experience and consider coming to Ireland in a few years if you want.

Don't worry about the schooling, my DC had way more religion in their English state primary than in the local Catholic school in Ireland.

I don't know Kilkenny well but I would say the big difference would be the rural / urban divide. I'm in a city, not Dublin so a bit bigger than Kilkenny and there are Educate Together schools in lots of places now. They are non denomination. Also most Catholic school are very open minded these days and there may be many non Catholics in every class, but depends where it is. For example in my suburb when the educate Together opened the balance changed so most in the original school are practising Catholics because anyone else went to the ET school, whereas where my friend lives there is no alternative therefore the Catholic school is very mixed. Its worth checking that out.

Also being vegan is no big deal where I am, there are loads of restaurants and takeaways with vegan options and many health food shops around but outside the city that becomes tricky. Likewise with public transport. It depends really where your people are. Obviously no point in moving to be near people unless you are actually near them!

While the majority of schools are catholic most would have pupils of other or no religion and it's not a big deal as it's the norm now and even then it's not like catholicism of old and non-catholics don't have to take part.

As for being a single parent I don't know anyone who bats an eyelid at it as it's so common now.

I made the move from the UK back to Ireland some time ago, Mumofone1xx, and I know some of the dilemmas you're going through.

To be honest, Ireland is going through a bad time at the moment - there are things being said and done on the streets of Ireland that I never ever thought I'd see in my country, and that make me feel ashamed. The atmosphere has deteriorated seriously in the past few years - it's probably no worse than other countries, but we used to pride ourselves as being different, and now we're just going down the same predictable polarised whirlpool.. It's depressing.

As far as religion is concerned, trans ideology has taken root here bigtime, with self-ID on demand, and women's rights specifically written out of equality legislation. There are a lot of stories about inappropriate 'gender woo' in schools here, but I can't be sure if they're all true - one way or another, you may find yourself having to check out gender material rather than Catholicism in your child's school! But Catholicism still has a lot of influence in schools, and agnostic or atheist children have to remove themselves from their classmates for religious instruction/communion prep classes, which is not ideal for kids, is it?

My advice would be to stay where you are for now, as turkeyboots suggests, and reassess what's going on in Ireland in a while; there are elections coming up, there's evidence that the tide is turning re women's rights/gender ID stuff... things might settle down into something less turbulent, whatever the political flavour.

Ditto to both these.

That's true @MarieDeGournay there is that negativity and polarisation creeping in, thank you social media. I think the social issues are much the same as what's going on in UK, from what I read here and from my family there. Perhaps not as extreme here but not far off. The housing situation is dire, a few years ago it was awful unless you have money, now it's awful regardless. As for the gender stuff I genuinely don't see it as an issue, I have a teenager and there has never been much talk of it. However the ET schools I mentioned above are much more likely to promote self ID than the Catholic schools, at least that's what i heard anecdotally. Also the public secondary schools are on balance better (I believe) than UK. Obviously depends on where you are. Childcare is grossly underfunded but you get childs benefit universally at 140 per month until DD turns 18. I genuinely don't know when this kicks in if moving here though.

Depends where you are thinking, KK city or county. Now it's a small city but I think there will be far more opportunities for you to make friends/ settle. If it's a small town it might be harder.

Loads of school are still Catholic, but more and more educate together schools are popping up. Look up the NCS calculator, even if you earn too much everyone will get €2.18 per hour (from sept) towards child care - my son goes to a community creche that also do wrap around care for older kids. Their day rate for creche is €30 so good options.

Jobs, look at the county councils directly. Look at the OPW, Heritage sites. Not really sure what sort of thing you'd be looking for. Check out local universities/ colleges.

Finding somewhere to rent is a nightmare.

You will more than likely need a car. But you might be on a decent bus route - unlikely.

Thank you all for your comments. I really appreciate it the time you have taken to read and comment 😊
It's interesting to hear about the schools, I know communion and confirmation are still quite big events there (I did mine at secondary school in Ireland but now not religious at all). I have looked into the Educate Together but there doesnt seem to be much of them in the South of Ireland.

@MarieDeGournay Can you elaborate with what you mean that the atmosphere is deteriorating and the polarisation occurring, as in gender polarisation? I haven't heard about this happening in Ireland, why do you think it is? I thought as a society things were moving forwards

I'm finding it very difficult as we have family we are close to in both countries which makes it really difficult. Expense unfortunately has to play a big part. Rent here is increasing rapidly too but Ireland still seems to be more expensive and much less available to rent.

There are 117 ET schools, 90 odd of them primary. Even though I sent DS to an ET school when we moved back from England, he has lots of friends at Catholic schools who didn’t make Communion or confirmation. I know that only eight out of 27 made their FC at a friend’s child’s standard Catholic school.

OP - here's an off-the-top-of-my-head explanation of what I meant about gender politics in Ireland:

• Gender legislation like the Gender Recognition Act were waved through the Dáil and Senate, enthusiastically supported by all parties at the time, no critique or analysis.
• As a result, the word 'woman' legally includes men, and women's organisations/spaces/services are no longer reserved for biological females.
• The rights of women, and men, used to be enshrined in equality legislation, but this morphed into 'gender equality', and there is no legal protection on the basis of biological sex.
• Non-governmental organisations which receive state funding have been very influential in promoting gender ideology, including in education, and opposing any questioning of it as rightwing transphobia.
• As is common around the world, 'LGBTQ+' has come to mean 'T for Transgender' in Ireland, and 'diversity' has become restricted too - for example, the University of Galway reduced its diversity by changing some of its adapted/disabled toilets to 'gender neutral' ones, which could be used by any able-bodied person who didn't want to use the men's or women's toilets.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples, these are just the ones that spring to mind. It has been depressingly wall-to-wall and largely uncontested 'be kind to the most oppressed minority' for years, but the recent referendum result and wider questioning about the disproportionate influence of trans rights activists/gender ideology suggests that the tide might be turning. Which is one of the reasons why I suggested holding on for a while because I think Ireland is in a state of flux at the moment.

Just looking at your own list I can't see how you can move. You're starting out in a career that you say has limited job opportunities here; it is so expensive here (accurate); there's no NHS (accurate); and there is an unprecedented level of a housing crisis leading to both the difficulty of finding anywhere to live and the extortionate levels of rent required if you do (with instability built in).

How can you make it work? The pros and cons about different family members being around only you can decide on. But surely you need the practical stuff to be feasible before you even start debating the rest?

Get some work experience where you are and look at it again in maybe 4-5 years time coming towards the end of primary.

Educated together is in kilkenny and in carlow. Even if they do go to Catholic schools they can opt out of communion and it is becoming increasingly more common. There is also talks of taking it out if school altogether.

If it is Kilkenny you are looking at, look at the bus and train route between waterford and dublin, there are plenty of stops along there.

Ireland is v expensive, especially hard to get somewhere to rent. As others have said get your experience over there first. Keep a look out for jobs here and hopefully in next few years housing will be slightly better. If you have a house and a job lined up there you'd be mad to move right now.

@3timeslucky thank you for your comment 🙂 I think the only way I would be able to make it work is to stay with my mum and her partner for until I can find somewhere to rent and try get a job when I am staying with them. I know they would be happy for us to do that, but if I was to move, I fear the idea of not being able to find a place to move too and there isn't much space at my mums so I wouldn't want to end up there long term, plus I feel we would need our own space too

@FuppinNora thank you for commenting 🙂 it's great to hear there are more options for non-religious schools! And a good thought about the bus/train route. I have my driving test booked for summer so fingers crossed I pass.

Should have added, we need to move house this summer regardless, so I think that is why this pull between the two countries is coming up even more so now. Plus I know the older kids are when moving, the harder it can be (I experienced this too). So I feel this pressure to get it right and it almost feels like if I do ultimately want to move, I move now or never (which doesn't help the pressured feeling).

How do people make these life-altering decisions?

Final word from me, Mumofone1xx, despite my earlier advice to give Ireland a bit of time to settle down before moving here -

• *there's no such thing as a perfect decision. Don't keep going round and round in your head, you'll make yourself dizzy! Make a decision, stick to it, no regrets, you can make it work. Both the UK and Ireland are overall grand places with nice people. You've been given a heads-up about some of the specific ones in Ireland but nowhere is perfect. I'm sure you can make a nice home for yourself and your little girl wherever you end up. Go n'éirí-leat/good luck

A final one from me too ... you say your mum and her partner would welcome you and your child but you don't say they have invited you to stay. Alongside the housing crisis here are parent/adult child relationships that are really suffering from compelled co-habitation. I don't know what age your mum & partner are, but there is a point in life where many many parents relish having their place to themselves. Maybe your mum and her partner are not there yet. But there's a frank conversation needs to be had, without fear of hurting feelings etc, about how they'd feel about housing you and your child either in the short, medium or long-term.

On a more upbeat note, there are plenty of kids who move at older than 6 and are absolutely fine. I wouldn't see this as a now or never scenario. Life is long and there are many chops and changes along the way. My children (late teens/early 20s) all have friends who moved here much older than your child and have happily settled and integrated and at college age have chosen to stay here because it is home.

You've got some practical info to find out yet on housing, schools, jobs. Some of that may help settle your decision. But that just makes it the right decision for now. Not the decision for forever.

Best of luck.

Go to Ireland! Went there on holiday last summer and loved it so much we both said we would happily move there!
All the towns and villages were clean, shops open, independent shops doing well, people actually had money to spend on stuff like cinema/bowling! Generally better standard of living than in the UK
DH was a vegan then and no problem with eating out, everywhere had a vegan option.

Thank you so much for your comments. I feel that is what I am doing, just going around in circles and exhausting myself. Thank you again

Thank you for commenting. I know my mum would be happy to have us as she has been trying to get us to move back for years. But I do worry about the effect this would have on our relationship and I know it would be best if it wasnt a long wait to get our own place (seems unlikely at the moment in Ireland).

Thank you, thats true. I feel the pressure to get it right but that isn't helping me with the decision, its just stressing me out. I think because I moved quite a bit growing up and didn't love that, I just really don't want that for my little one.

Thanks again :)

Your sector is increasing every year - if you were looking at a flexible family friendly roll then you could keep an eye out at SEAI/EPA Ireland - State agencies with hybrid working arrangement's - offices in Wexford/Dublin.

There is no perfect decision - it is a case of make a decision and be happy with it - but I would agree with your caution of the timing. It is better to sort before there are additional ties for your daughter. Wherever you decide at least they are both accessible to each other.

My biggest concern (if I was in your shoes) would be the lack of housing. I don't know if you're intending to rent or buy, but you could be a long time staying with your Mum and her partner before you find something suitable and even then, you could end up paying way over the odds. I suggest you have a look at daft.ie and see what's on offer in the area you hope to move to.

The lack of NHS would also be a deterrent, if you're used to free healthcare. There is free healthcare in Ireland but it's means tested. So people with no income or a low income would probably qualify for a medical card or GP visit card. Everyone else has to take out a health insurance policy or else pay as they go.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about the religious schools. Most schools are religious because they were originally run by the religious orders (nuns or priests). But as time went by, the nuns and priests were replaced by lay teachers. Whilst the schools have a religious ethos (in theory), in practice religion isn't drummed into the children like it would have been years ago. However, there's probably a fair bit of religious instruction in the year they prepare to make their first holy communion (age 7 or 8) and confirmation (age 12/13). Aside from the religious element, your daughter might feel like she's missing out on the excitement - a fancy white dress (first holy communion), a fun day out/party with bouncy castle and gifts of money from relatives and friends. It probably depends on the area, to some extent. In my small town there's only one primary school and it has a religious ethos. But it's the only school in the town so everyone goes there. So it's a mix of all religions (and none). In larger towns there might be more choice and so the school with the religious ethos is likely to have a higher concentration of families who practice that religion. People as a whole are far less religious. I'm in my early '50s and was raised as a Catholic but I don't practice (attend mass or pray). None of my friends do either. We only attend church if there's a reason to do so i.e. wedding, funeral, communion, confirmation etc.

It would probably be easier for you to get to know people in the locality if you move when your DD is small. She'll be invited to birthday parties and play dates etc. and you'll get to chat to the other parents. And she'll probably join sports clubs or a dance class or something. Those social networking opportunities will close off as she moves to secondary school. But if you have a social network already through your Mum and your Ex's family, that might not be so important.

It's a really tough decision to make and I wouldn't dream of steering you one way or the other. At least England isn't too far away and as @Marblessolveeverything said, you can easily visit family in England/Ireland.

Yes the lack of housing is my biggest concern too, seems crazy over there. Do you know if what is going is really all that is on Daft? Or is housing like jobs in ireland with more of a it's who you know? As there is so little on daft, and crazy that everything is over a grand!

I think as a single parent, if we were to make the move we would get free health care as I wouldn't be on a high income.

It's good to know about religion in schools. I appreciate everyone's perspective on this.

Yeah I think the fact it would be easier the smaller my daughter is for us both to settle is what's leaving me feeling like if I'm going to make the move it should be sooner rather than later. It really is a tough decision, thank you for commenting x

When I have to make a decision like this I take a sheet of paper and divide down the middle - Ireland / Uk and then I take each of those pros and cons and draw them as an arrow away from the centre so I have a visual representation of the relative weight of each factor. It sounds like being close to your mum would be a long arrow for you. Consider how long/short each of the other arrows are. Keep adding to it as you consider other factors posters have mentioned.

I would at least get the grad scheme under your belt. When that's done reassess your position. I would then start to slowly apply for jobs in your field in Ireland and just take it from there.
Hopefully your mum might be in a position to visit you and your sister more regularly in the interim?