Are Irish kids less confident?

[Southlondoner88]

DH and I are both Irish, living in London, I left very young, at age 20 and visit a few times a year. I currently work with children so have noticed some differences in child rearing and the reason I am pondering is because we are thinking of starting a family here in London but may move back to Dublin some day. I remember my parents being awful, we were seen and not heard sort of thing and I thought it was just my crap parents but perhaps it’s a cultural thing?

I was recently on a visit to Dublin and I’ve noticed that most of our nieces and nephews are very shy and quite sheltered really, they are rarely taken out to parks/ cafes/ museums etc.. their parents prefer them to be sitting quietly on screens, if they are playing and raising their voices even a little, they will be told off, they are constantly being told to shhhh, and seem reluctant to explore their environments or talk confidently to adults around them.

Whereas the children I work with and see day-day in London are much more confident, they will come right up to adults and ask for what they need, they will look you in the eye and if you told them off for anything, they’d challenge you. I was recently at a school assembly where children put on a performance, the children were singing their hearts out, remembered their lines without prompting and just seemed to have no issue with being the centre of attention. I thought they were much older than they were but turns out they were just reception class.
I used to live in the states and it was the same, I remember being shocked at seeing parents getting down on the floor and actually playing with their children rather than just sitting and watching them from afar.

I maybe just be comparing classes here as where I live is quite middle class and our families are very working class with little education themselves. I’d like to think if we moved back over that we’d live somewhere where it’s ok to let children be themselves and go to parks, trips to the mountains, theatre, cafes etc. surely some parts of Dublin are like that and so insular?

Basically just pondering life really and it would be nice if someone could fill me in on whether they see the cultural difference I see.

@Southlondoner88 I wonder if to an extent
its that when you’re with family you’re seeing them in their homes/other family members homes where they are happy to be themselves whereas in the UK you’re seeing people on their best parenting behaviour as they are in public or with friends out and about.

In saying that I don’t recognise what you’re saying as being true of the parenting I’ve experienced here in rural Ireland. While I do tell my child sometimes to be quiet and watch tv because I’m exhausted by her questions I do also spend a lot of time engaging with her and answering her, thinking about age appropriate answers etc, we also take her to cultural experiences, out to restaurants and cafes weekly and she is very confident in saying her piece in front of adults, strangers or otherwise.

Not in my experience. My children are teens and go to a gaelcholaiste and the reason we picked it was on the open day all of the TYs that showed us around and all of the other teens that spoke were so confident and self assured. I am so impressed by the teens here, my kids friends are all so polite and so self assured.

We are working class in Ireland and I have working class relatives in the North of England. It is like night and day. The English relatives struggle academically, poor literacy, poor behaviour, finish school after GCSEs with very poor knowledge etc The Irish working class relatives the children are very polite, all do the leaving cert then either an apprenticeship or college, all value education, all have confident kids involved in clubs/groups/sports, most work from 16, all can hold interesting conversations have great knowledge of what's going on in the news.

We aren't in Dublin, we are in the West and this is just my experience and I acknowledge that my English cousins and their children are living in a very deprived part of the UK so this won't be universal for working class English people.

I think it's your family as you said yourself your childhood was chaotic and it's influenced how your siblings parents and probably the same in your DH's family. It's probably the same in a lot of chaotic families no matter where they live.

I cannot identify with what you're describing. I've got 24 or 25 nieces and nephews plus my own young adult children and I've been working with children for 23 years and the vast majority are outgoing and confident children or young adults now and well able to engage in conversation with adults.

Going to parks/playgrounds, cafes/restaurants, cinema, extra curricular activities is the norm. I live in a city and the nearest beach is only 8 minutes drive from my house and I have at least 6 beaches within 15 mins drive from me, mountains in under 30 mins.

I was born in the mid 60's and it was a case of children should be seen but not heard but that's no longer the case for most children nowadays. When my older lad was just 17 he volunteered to MC an event for a number of different groups who were gathering for an event, no way I'd have been able to do that even as a young adult, I was 6 weeks in junior infants before I said my first word in school and that was anseo for the role call as I was traumatised by the brutality I witnessed daily, I'm not shy now - I regularly speak on national radio something I'd never have imagined doing as a young one.

I also agree with the previous poster who said parents will be more relaxed in their parenting when with family and more circumspect in their parenting amongst friends.

I'm English, live in Ireland (near Dublin), kids go to a National School (not ET) in a working class area of Dublin, albeit rubbing shoulders with rich bits.

I think the kids are freer to be kids here - as PP said, all the estates have green areas, and kids still play out. Many walk home from 5th class. I find the kids I encounter to generally be polite - I suppose you might interpret that as shy, but if, for example, I'm heading into the shop and I drop something, or I need directions and I ask, they'll easily help out or answer.

As opposed to when I lived in London or a council estate down south in the UK and many kids were actively pushy - asking for money at the door yelling out stuff as you walked by etc.

Perhaps this is what you're seeing? Kids are sent out to play a lot more than anywhere else I lived, but that's because they actually have somewhere to play. I find they're much sportier too. On the other hand, there's a lot more swearing (but as part of their speech, not aggressive)

The education system is excellent (from my slice of experience) although a bit of a shock to be picking up my kids at what felt like lunchtime!

The 80s and early 90s weren't great for many reasons in Ireland so you'd have grown up in a very different environment to modern Ireland.
I brought my DC back from England and they've loved the school system here andnits really boosted their confidence. It's no longer a crime for DD to be quiet in class like it seemed to be in her English school.

@turkeyboots

Exactly. Schools in Ireland are much nicer environments.

I'm raising children here in a village in the West of Ireland and can't really recognise either what you are talking about. Being a rural area, there's all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds without massive class demarcation (eg everyone goes to the same primary school regardless of parents education, income etc). Most children that I encounter as a parent and volunteer across a number of activities are reasonably chatty, reasonably confident and pleasant children. Parents are really involved and encouraging but not OTT and well able to tell their child to cut it out if they are being obnoxious, rude etc. So on the whole pretty balanced I'd say and if anything , veering more towards the 'sun shines out of my child's arse' end of things than what you describe. I really do think it is quite specific to you and your partners family culture. I identify SOME of what you say from my own pretty working class childhood but a) that was the 1970s and 80s and b) not as mean as you describe.

@theleafandnotthetree

My family are from the West and we were definitely made aware of the difference between a strong ego and a big ego. Served me very well indeed in England so far. I don’t recognise what the OP says, I think she’s using her family and just generalising the whole of Ireland for it 🤦‍♀️ .

It's just how you bring your children up. Mine are super confident in most situations because it's how I exposed them from young, partly through necessity, partly choice. Dd thanked me the other day for ensuring she knew how to make small talk at events with people from different walks of life ... so important in my jobs but amazing how many people can't do it

From my observation of family in Ireland, kids are younger for longer. They play out more, play with toys longer and there are expectations for their behaviour which may be different to the UK in some ways.

But I see their parents run ragged doing everything possible for them. They may not have easy access to theatres and museums, but they are doing sports, going to various days out, family get together are frequent and the children are free to play with cousins.

They also stay in school longer. They just don't leave at 16, ever. They're in school till 18, no questions asked. Parents are supportive of third level, educationally and financially.

It's just different.

I recognise that impatient, shouty type of parenting both because I had one of those and I observed a lot of it in the wc part of Dublin I grew up in. However I’ve also seen it in parts of London, Yorkshire and Manchester all of which I visit frequently. So no, it’s not a cultural thing it’s a crap parenting thing.

Unfortunately there are plenty of people who parent their own dc the way themselves were raised so I think that’s what you’re seeing among your family.

My own children are definitely not being raised that way. Actually it often occurs to me just how confident many dc are compared to my 80s/90s experience of being a child. Not in any obnoxious way (mostly!) but dc these days are generally much more comfortable sharing their views and opinions, challenging adults etc. Parenting is more child centred now and of course schools have changed hugely since my day.

Mine are 10 and 12 in suburbs of Dublin; in term time they walk to and from school with their friends & after homework go out with their friends. They have sports training 3/4 nights a week each and then matches weekends. 12 Yr old just got a phone for finishing primary but none til now. Feel they are quite independent and spend most of their time outdoors playing with friends (this is what all the kids around here do)

I agree with this. I’m not Irish but I often think quieter people are actually the more confident, the louder ones seem to be a bit more insecure and like they need to prove something, or entertain others to be liked.

@Sweetashunni

Yep. I’ve seen it in practice too working in education. There are many kids who simply just get on, and often quietly. Many of those young people have gone on to succeed out there in the real world.
I suspect they’re not there challenging their bosses at every opportunity, but rather using skills such as teamwork and persistence etc. Being quietly confident does not mean you’re a pushover or any less resilient.
In contrast I’ve heard on the grapevine many of those “confident, challenging” ones aren’t having a rosy time of it out there. Not at all a surprise if I’m honest.

Bear in mind too that many of us are bringing up our children by choice in a very different way to how we were reared, and that how we were reared often (obviously generalising) reflected our grandparents’ more deferential generation. My mother was taught to defer to men and (usually male) authority figures, that the worst thing you could be was ‘full of yourself’ and to step off the pavement and bless herself when the parish priest passed. She brought me up (born early 70s) to reflect this — don’t speak, don’t assert yourself, be shy because people like nice shy girls, obey the rules.

I grew out of that pretty early, and I’m bringing up my now-11 year old to be confident, questioning, emotionally literate and assertive and to consider his needs as well as others’. He gets his input heard in family decisions. I expect him to be able to talk to adults. He goes to an Educate Together which is very socially and culturally mixed, where teachers are addressed by their first names. He’s also lived in other countries so he gets there are other ways of living.

yes I guess parents are a lot more clued in now and parent a lot differently, I hope to expose our children to lots of different things and encourage them to be expressive but also polite. Unfortunately some people are still stuck in the dark ages, some of this is to do with social/ economic deprivation though and not always at the fault of the parent or family itself. @StephanieSuperpowers I have a couple of social worker friends in Ireland who tell me that many children are leaving school before their leaving cert due to teen pregnancy etc but I do think it is getting less common now (I hope).

Ireland rates of teen pregnancy is 1.5%, UK is c.14%.

There are very few teen pregnancies and there are multiple education programs to engage learners who step out for any reason.

There are some gaps but generally in Europe Ireland is fairly high in learners attaining higher secondary level.

I spent my 20s working in London and came home to have my family. I've friends who stayed in London, teaching in secondary and tertiary, most are itching to get out.

Where do these social workers work? It's just not true to say that 'many children leave school before the lc because of teen pregnancy', the stats will show that. Ive only ever known one school age girl who was pregnant, this was 20yrs ago and she was supported by her parents to finish the leaving cert.

In general Ireland is very pro education, it is valued highly by parents here probably why we have the most educated young people in the EU and the 4th most educated in the world, hoards of young people dropping out of school due to teen pregnancy isn't something anyone should be concerned about with regards to a move here.

Your child’s confidence and educational outcome depends on more factors than just the country they live in - it depends on their family’s attitude to education, the area they grow up in (whatever country that is), their friendship groups, the schools, the employment opportunities around them. I am Irish but moved to UK for post graduate degree and employment opportunities in the early 2000s. After a long time abroad I moved back to Ireland with my children but due to the high cost of living in Ireland and less job opportunities in my profession we moved back to the UK. The schools my kids went to in Ireland couldn’t get teachers (inc SEND staff) to fill the posts due to the cost of housing in the area - young teachers simply couldn’t afford it. Some were leaving to go abroad to teach. Now the school was at one point really good but the lack of qualified teachers in the school didn’t bode well with what a good school entails. It was also filled to the brim with kids and the school needed an extension but the Dept of Ed said it didn’t have the funds for the extension which I found flabbergasting considering how much money the state apparently had. Where we are now is an area where young teachers can afford to live so the school has sufficient teacher staff. I know the UK teachers are facing other issues but at least it appears more of them can afford to have homes in the areas they want to teach in. So no where is perfect - it all depends on the child, family and school. The UK education system has its problems and so does Ireland. I didn’t think from my experience of both countries any one education system was much better than the other - each had their pros and cons but overall came out much the same. The UK and Ireland have some of the highest educational outcomes in the whole of Europe. And given the Uk is much much larger and more diverse I think this says a lot for the UK system and all the issues it has to tackle. And the school environment my children have experienced in their schools in the UK wasn’t anymore harsher than the one they experienced in Ireland.

as for confidence point - as others have posted, I think this is down to the attitude of the parents / their class, wherever they may be - whether that is in Ireland or England. If you’re a family that encourages confidence in your child that is what you will likely get.