Shooting of police officer in NI

[Chickenkeev]

I've been listening to news of this all morning on the radio (rte). I was horrified to hear about it and that police are working mainly on the theory that dissident republicans are responsible. I was quite surprised (stunned if I'm honest) that it doesn't seemed to have appeared on any threads on MN, that I can see anyway. Surely it's of national importance to the UK as well as here?

You're correct that in Northern Ireland Great Britain is frequently referred to as the mainland. There's nothing wrong with that, to be honest.

It really means that Northern Ireland is part of a unitary sovereign state with Great Britain forming the UK. As explicitly stated in the Belfast Agreement itself.

Of course, it would be incorrect to refer to GB as the mainland when it comes to the Republic of Ireland aka Ireland. That one is an independent sovereign state itself.

But in relation to Northern Ireland? Go for it. Be aware though that a Republican is more likely to argue with you about it. A Nationalist is usually less concerned about it. A Unionist and Loyalist will encourage you.

As for Belfast being a British city, again this is reflected in the BA as well as history. Its layout and more is based on other British cities. You'll find various similarities between Belfast and mainland cities such as Glasgow, Manchester and even Sheffield.

Again, a Republican is likely to argue with you about it. A Nationalist might well do. But point to the fact the Belfast Agreement states "Northern Ireland is an INTEGRAL part of the UK".

You haven't said anything offensive, so don't worry about it. As you know, a great many people in Belfast and beyond will reger to Great as the mainland. As my username suggests, I'm from Down but living on the mainland.

As a nationalist, most nationalists I know would rather gouge their own eyes out than use the term mainland. Belfast is an Irish city, it is a city in Ireland. It was a town in Ireland before the Act of Union and became a city as a result of industrialisation. Belfast is under British jurisdiction, but it remains an Irish city and would have been recognised as such without argument until the establishment of the jurisdiction of Northern Ireland, after which some inhabitants sought to rebrand it as British in line with their beliefs. The structure of the city as you recognise it today was mainly constructed during the Victorian period, as were the bits of Manchester, Sheffield and Glasgow which are comparable. It is the Victorian era architecture and layout that makes these cities similar, not that they are British.

Fingers crossed Detective Caldwell pulls through. I wonder if he's related to another Caldwell who was murdered by the Provos? Bomb in his lunchbox, IIRC. Lived in Londonderry and Republicans tried for years to hound his surviving family out of their house there.

Unfortunately, I'm not surprised by this attack as such things have been going on all this time since 1998. Usually, violence is meted out by terrorists on their own communities, I.e. Republicans and Loyalists being violent to people in their own areas.

The level of violence is low enough, I guess, for most to ignore it. Including in Northern Ireland itself.

The Belfast Agreement didn't end all violence. It reduced it to a level is a better way of putting it.

Security assessments from the UK and ROI is clear. All groups have access to weapons - PIRA, INLA, UVF, UDA, etc. All of them.

Shameful.

Caldwell is a fairly common name, it may be possible I suppose. In addition to reducing to a negligible level paramilitary violence, the GFA was 100% effective in also ending the violence of the army and the RUC. Which thankfully in turn led to the establishment of a police force in which the whole community could have faith. That’s why dissidents targeted this poor police officer. They want to other the PSNI and it’s officers in a way that is not reflective of the views of the majority of nationalists and republicans now.

You're really describing Republicans rather than Nationalists per se as one is usually much more balanced than the other. Although I note most Republicans like to call themselves Nationalists these days which isn't surprising because it doesn't carry to heavy baggage Republican does.

Belfast's similarities to Glasgow and northern English cities is actually deeper than simply architecture or layout.

As these tidbits from the National Archives Of Ireland demonstrates:

"Even the northern industrial towns of England, with which Belfast shared so many similarities, could not match a city which became the fastest growing urban area in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland."

And:

"Social life in Belfast was markedly similar to that in the northern industrial towns of England."

And:

"The professional soccer leagues of northern England were replicated in the working class culture of Belfast: thousands of men in flat caps poured into soccer grounds on Saturday afternoons to attend matches."

So, social life was pretty similar as well. The impact of the decline of heat industry was the same in Belfast as in Glasgow and Sheffield, for example. The connections between Belfast and other British cities is historically clear. Indeed, Belfast was known as Linenopolis while Manchester was Cottonopolis.

It shouldn't be a surprise that British trade also brought British social norms, activities and past times with it to Belfast. The description of Belfast as a British city stands. I've certainly seen Nationalists refer to Belfast as being a British city in contrast to Dublin being much more an Irish city too.

@DownNative The distinction between the terms nationalist and republican is a bit of a sideshow. Although one can certainly be a nationalist without believing in a republican form of government as eg many Scottish people are.

Unionists I speak to make a sharp distinction between themselves and ' loyalists ' for the same reasons I suppose. Belfast does indeed resemble a city built in England during the Industrial revolution. So does Glasgow. Dublin is more pre Industrial. The mainland is still European

‘You're really describing Republicans rather than Nationalists’ I am a nationalist, not a republican. I’m not sure on what basis you feel equipped to tell me how most nationalists feel about anything tbh. I’ve never been a republican, though I know many of them. I would say you are quite out of touch there as by far the overwhelming majority of certainly young people have rejected the term nationalist in favour of republican. I don’t know any one who has referred to themselves as a republican who now refers to themselves as a nationalist.
‘So, social life was pretty similar as well’ because they are all former industrial cities. The shift pattern, working lives and schedule of payments in common between those kinds of workers would be far more determinative of their social lives than the governing power. And indeed there was much movement between these cities for work as industrial centres depending on where the most was to be found.
Belfast was branded a British city by the unionist state, which did all it could to try and erase any Irishness from the city and the jurisdiction. An endeavour which of course did not succeed.

@Abhannmor
Did Stanley Johnson really say "Let the Irish kill each other" ?

Something similar.
He was of the view that Thatcher would have taken a stronger line about the border during Brexit negotiations.
He said she would have said
"look if the Irish want to shoot each other they will shoot each other whether there’s a hard border or whether there is a soft border, that is something the Irish will do if they want to".
He later apologised.

Mind you, I don't know if loyalist paramilitaries like being thought of as Irish, but I guess he didn't think of that.

I'd say Loyalist paramilitaries would take umbrage with Johnson for being called Irish all right @Pianoaccordian

But they still love him. After all his son gave them Brexit and the possibility of a new war , which is their raison d'etre. As it is for their counterparts on the other extreme.

Many loyalists and more hard line unionists were supporters of brexit because (leaving aside the hundreds of millions of dodgy DUP money) they thought the outcome would be the re-imposition of a border on the island of Ireland. Everything else is posturing.

Why else would they support Brexit- and then say it isn't hard enough - when it was rejected by Northern Ireland in the Referendum? Their last chance ever to put the screws on Vast Monster Porlomont to return to the status quo ante .

I'm not sure why people thought dissident republicans had gone away? Lyra McKee was killed by one. Sinn Féin is the most popular political party in the Republic by a country mile. Republicanism is 100% alive and kicking and obviously with that there are going to be dissident groups too. I hardly think loyalist groups have gone away, have they?

It's one of the many reasons I was and still am so incredibly furious with people who voted Brexit. I'm English but have Irish relatives and friends and lived in Northern Ireland for a little while. It really opened my eyes. My heart goes out to that officer and those kids, and everyone who thought this was all over.

Another Omagh woman here. It's shocking and completely disgusting.

I drove through Omagh yesterday and felt uneasy. I saw a lot of police cars out and about also and wondered how uneasy those officers were feeling.

It's just appalling.

Lyra McKee on the Peace Process ' the important word is Process'.

So true. We need people like Lyra now.

Dissident republicans are absolutely nothing to do with Sinn Fein. To dissident republicans and their supporters Sinn Fein are traitors and they are implacably opposed to them. In turn most mainstream republicans regard dissidents as head cases.

To the people from Omagh, I can't find the words but I sympathise. I wish i could find a better word.

I'm English, living in England of Irish heritage and have taken an interest in NI politics and history since I was a teenager. I've visited NI many times and made the effort to listen to people with opposing views. I have friends across NI some of whom have very strong views and refuse to hold a British passport, a friend whose mother married a British soldier in the 1970's and friends who have no strong views at all other than valuing the peace.

I am also to parent of a serving police officer.

Whilst this barbaric shooting (in front of children FFS) has features that are NI specific, this is still a British police officer shot in cold blood on British land (factual observation rather than making assumptions on his views on his identity/religion etc which I know nothing).

I am disappointed in how minimal media and social media attention has been on this case. I actively searched for this thread as hadn't seen anything elsewhere on this site.

The thin blue line has been breached and I can only imagine how nervous this will be making some communities feel.

I hope John can pull through and his friends, family and colleagues are in my thoughts as well as those poor children witnessing such pointless extreme violence.

Minimal media attention? It was top story on the news and in the press - it's still within top 3 stories on BBC website.

The Omagh vigil was on BBC tv news last night. Very moving.

I am disappointed in how minimal media and social media attention has been on this case.

It’s been in every BBC radio news update I’ve heard since it happened.

Just because there’s not lots of people on MN discussing it doesn’t mean it’s not getting news coverage.

@catherinecawoodrtd People in Northern Ireland don't need to 'have strong views' in order to travel on an Irish passport. Or indeed a British one. It is their right as per the GFA. Although it predates the agreement.

Mind you , Ian Paisley Jr has an Irish passport , despite his ' strong views' against the GFA and indeed everything Irish. We live in strange times.

A small consolation being the murderous extremists seem to have no support. And fwiw it's good that Labour will support the government's efforts to fix the Protocol.

I didn't lump every single person in NI into that statement, just mentioning one family I know who do have strong views. I'm aware that both passports are an option. My friends choose not to exercise that right. Interesting about Ian paisley jnr using an Irish passport though. I didn't know that.