'leanbhan' pronunciation?

[Star555]

Recently discovered the sweet, soothing Gartan Mother's Lullaby and am in love with it! I've listened to many versions on Youtube but they all pronounce 'leanbhan' differently. Can someone please tell me the correct Irish phonetic pronunciation? Lyrics here:
www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2016/jan/18/poem-of-the-week-the-gartan-mothers-lullaby-by-joseph-campbell

According to the article you linked to it's supposed to mean little child and they claim it's pronounced LYAN-uh-van meaning Little child, baby. However, the word for child is leanbh and is pronounced nothing like that. It's pronounced more Lan-iv. The suffix "ín" is often appended to words to mean little so I google the suffix "án" and apparently it's an older suffix, also meaning little toingaeilge.com/post/190220204913/the-suffix-án.

So based on all that, it would be pronounced lan-iv-awn but the correct spelling would be leanbhán as "an" and "án" are pronounced differently.

The lan is like land without the d, just in case that would be pronounced differently in your accent.

It's usually pronounced LAN-van (leanbhan) in the song when I've heard Irish people singing it, though I've heard LAN-vawn (leanbhán) as well so the fada seems to reappear for some people. The fact it's not a (current) Irish word leads to a lot of variation.

I think the 3-syllable pronunciation it would normally have (if pronounced as an Irish word) just doesn't scan well in the line so it gets reduced to 2 syllables instead. (Though it is the slender L so it's kind of LYAN-iv-awn rather than plain LAN-iv-awn in many dialects - www.teanglann.ie/ga/fuaim/Leanbh).

Interesting about the -án suffix being an archaic form of -ín, ochón - I've never encountered it in modern use before.

Interesting about the -án suffix being an archaic form of -ín

Me neither MarDhea. I was wondering was it a caol vs leathan thing but any words I could think of with a leathan that would work with the suffix seem to usually get an i added e.g. capaillín from capall.

Re the LYAN-iv--awn - I'm not really getting that. To me, that would sound like Lie-an-iv-awn or lee-an-iv-een. I'm obviously getting it wrong. Would it be more lin-iv-awn? I can kind of hear some other dialects saying it like that.

And yes, words can end up shortened or lengthened when sung so lanv-awn is probably correct.

Re the LYAN-iv--awn - I'm not really getting that. To me, that would sound like Lie-an-iv-awn or lee-an-iv-een. I'm obviously getting it wrong. Would it be more lin-iv-awn? I can kind of hear some other dialects saying it like that.

Ah it's tricky trying to approximate it in written form! The closest is lee-an-iv-awn but only if the lee-an is run together very fast into a single syllable, like yan with an L in front of it.

The "ly" sound is like the "lli" blend at the end of William or million, if they were said fast.

Or it's /ˈlʲan̪ˠ/ in IPA if that helps at all!

Thanks for your help, @OchonAgusOchonOh and @MarDheaMarD! Seems like the best match is either LAN-van or LAN-vawn for the song. Is the LYAN- pronunciation a non-standard/old dialect pronunciation? (I think I've heard both Lee-AN-van and Leen-vin on Youtube for different singers.) Is it kind of like the name Lianne but with a very short li and emphasis on the anne? (I'm actually trying to learn the song myself and make a recording for my family with harp self-accompaniment. )

Oh I think I posted at the same time as your most recent one @MarDhea and din't see it before posting. That makes it very clear, thank you!

Or it's /ˈlʲan̪ˠ/ in IPA if that helps at all!

No idea what IPA is, never mind the rest

Is the LYAN- pronunciation a non-standard/old dialect pronunciation?

There are multiple dialects. They can be quite different from one another for some pronunciations and words but you would generally understand the other dialects. Except for Ulster Irish, that it. That's quite different to the others for a lot of pronunciations.

Best way I heard it described was a clip about the leaving cert Irish Aural exam where they have a clip from each of the main dialects. The Ulster (or donegal) one was described as some fella coming on and making whale noises

My Irish would be mainly connemara/connacht. Munster and Leinster are the other main dialects.

Lan- iv- awn

This sounds a bit silly, but I think you've heard different pronunciations, OP, just because there are different ways of saying it.
In Irish the word leanbhán is said like this in some dialects

forvo.com/word/leanbh%C3%A1n/

But in Ulster Irish this is a bit different as Ochon mentioned - for a start they don't pronounce án as awn as the other dialects do - and it's an Ulster song. The letter l is slender (as it's next to an i or e) and in Irish this is not said the same as an English letter l...hence ly was used to transcribe as MarDhea said. You can hear the difference in the l sound in the link above.

The song is in English though, not Irish, and leanbhan is somewhat anglicised without its fada and would be said more like lan-van then. This is how Luke Kelly says it in his version I think. Singers will tend to use their own Irish or Hiberno-English dialect when singing so that's why you're hearing different versions. And the number of syablles have to match the song too as MarDhea said, so there's probably some adjustment there.

As a diminutive án is still seen today in names -Ciarán, Aodhán, Caolán, Ŕónán etc.

It's a lovely song.

Sorry, I gave Rónán an extra fada there!

That's makes sense with the names @LizzieAnt. And if it's an Ulster song it's definitely not awn.

@Star555 - and all you wanted was a simple answer to pronunciation

Lol the simple answer is that there is no simple answer!

Thanks for the detailed explanation @LizzieAnt. Even though I have no experience with Celtic languages, I have lots of experience with classical (Latin/Greek) linguistics and philology so I really enjoy and appreciate discussions like these.

No problem @Star555. I'm only an enthusiastic amateur I'm afraid, so not as expert as others here, but l love language too. Learning IPA is the next challenge.
(Just realised I managed to spell syllable incorrectly as well as Rónán though . I'm afraid to look too closely at the rest now. Must learn to re-read properly before posting )

I would say it as Lan-I-van

@OchonAgusOchonOh
You wrote that the best way to describe Ulster Irish ( Donegal ) was ".....as some fella coming on and making whale noises...."

I agree. I have no idea what they are saying.
Just remember the famous Donegal singer Enya's real name is Eithne and Enya is the phonetic anglicised version of Eithne !!!!!
Says it all.
To me Eithne is Ethnah

Is it an anglicised way of saying "a leanbh bhán"? Which I would pronounce "a lan-ah wawn" as I speak Galway Irish. This is a term of endearment where I come from. My grandmother would have called us that, or just a leanbh or a leanbhaín (no idea how to spell that but it's pronounced lean-een).

I think it's án not bhán, a diminutive rather than white SeanChailleach.

I find Ulster Irish very difficult too LadyEloise. Eithne is an interesting example, though, because it seems they're the ones who have its pronunciation right.

Apparently Eithne was mispronounced by some following the re-emergence of the name with the Gaelic Revival. This version has become popular, everyone I know says Et-neh too. (I'm in Munster, not in a Gaeltacht area though.) But the t sound wasn't originally pronounced - a similar example is the word ceithre (four), no t sound. It should be En-yeh or Eh-neh really, depending on dialect. I think the modified Et-neh version is probably here to stay at this stage though

I think it's án not bhán, a diminutive rather than white.
Sorry, that was meant for @Somatronic 🤦‍♀️
It's definitely a term of endearment.
www.teanglann.ie/en/fgb/leanb%c3%a1n

The -án ending is from Old Irish -acan. The -ín ending is from Norman French, and started appearing in Irish texts around 1100CE. There is a form leanbháinín in Dinneen's dictionary, which he says is pronounced with b instead of bh. That's like mixing up "leanbhán" with "leanbh bán" and then flinging a diminutive on the end. Bán means "Bonny" as well as white, so "leanbh bán" is "bonny baby".

That's really interesting @BananaBreakfast, thank you. I didn't know ín was Norman in orgin. I wasn't familiar with bán used in the sense of bonny before either. But, thinking about it now, there's an buachaill bán too, the white-haired boy (ie fair-haired boy) which means the favourite or darling boy. My mother used the English version fairly often.
Báinín I've only heard before in the context of the whitish wool the Aran jumpers are knitted from (also known as báinín jumpers in this house) . I guess the fact that Dineen has leanbháinín (said with a b) means that leanbh bán was used as well as leanbhán.
The endearments your granny used are so lovely @Somatronic, make me nostalgic for my own.

1 However, the word for child is leanbh and is pronounced nothing like that. It's pronounced more Lan-iv.

2 Is the LYAN- pronunciation a non-standard/old dialect pronunciation?

Leanbh should always be pronounced with a slender L, which is Lyaniv. Leanbhan also has that slender L.

To pronounce the slender L, you place the front and tip of your tongue against the ridge and palate behind your upper front teeth. You widen your lips slightly.

To pronounce the broad L of 'Laniv' (wrong pronunciation), you place the tip of your tongue at the back of your front teeth and the ridge behind them. Your mouth opens but doesn't widen.

(The V sound should be made with the lips, iirc. It's softer than the English V sound).