Leaving Cert cancelled ....

[Joolsin]

I'm so pissed off.It's a shambles - to be replaced with, in essence, a predicted grade system.

My DS has SN, his schoolwork has always been erratic, varying between very bad and good. His year head told me himself at the beginning of 6th Year that he couldn't work out a baseline for how DS would do in the exams, but we were all set to let him have his chance. Now that same year head, plus other teachers, will have to somehow try and predict what that outcome might have been. This might be easy to do with consistently high-achieving and/or steady students, but how will they manage the rest?

They say it's for the safety of them and their teachers, but ffs, hairdressers, offices and creches are due to open on 20th July. If they can go ahead, so can socially distancing teachers and students. I saw no major issues with the Minister's initial plan of holding Leaving Cert exams from 29th July. Two extra months' study to make up for the disruption. Given that junior cert students would not be there, schools would have had twice the amount of space and personnel to safely socially distance. These poor kids have been preparing their entire educational lives for exams in a set format that they knew and understood, only to be thrown under a bus at the last minute.

I'm just so mad and sad for DS and his pals.

I think they'll have the option to sit the exams later, maybe January, if they aren't happy with the predictive grades. I know it's hard for the students, the LC year is torture as it is, but this extra layer of stress must be terrible.

@chartreuse yes, I heard that - another shitshow - where would they go to school for half a year, and how tough to try to remain motivated for that further length of time, only to have to compete with LC 2021 students as they'd be too late to enter college in 2020. They really are being pushed around.

It really depends on what they want to do next. If you're aiming for a traditional university course then the grades/points are obviously important but there will be a lot of additional places in many courses this year with no foreign students so points will go down anyway.

There are many great fetac courses and they are usually flexible with entry requirements and I'm sure they will be even more accommodating this year.

One of my dc didn't do the LC in the end due to a medical emergency, rather than repeat the year they did a PLC which got them into a degree course. So the LC isn't the 'be all'.

I think everyone is doing their best in an unprecedented situation. Hope it all works out for your ds.

"One of my dc didn't do the LC in the end due to a medical emergency, rather than repeat the year they did a PLC which got them into a degree course. So the LC isn't the 'be all'."

Funny you say that, my DD was the same and I agree, PLCs are brilliant. I just think I'm doomed never to have a child do LC

I can't understand how they can't have it.

To be fair if we get another surge in Covid 19 in July / August and they then had to cancel leaving cert again where would that put the students? My son wanted to do the leaving and has been working towards 29 July . He was a bit upset yesterday but when we read the document he cheered up. He can sit exam in one or two subjects not happy with grade and use a combination of both for his CAO. In theory he has 2 chances .

With regard to starting university in 2020 first years may not be starting till after Halloween anyway . Most lectures will be online or remote. Graduations are online !

It really is an awful situation for our children to be in at such a young age but really once they are healthy and happy that is all that matters .

I can send you the link from government if you want clarity .

Thanks @Lmes, but i have the document already - the school sent it yesterday. Sorry to your son too. It's so weird to be suddenly told, that's it, no more schooling. And all the books still open on the desk! No socialising, no 6th Year Holiday, no exams, possibly no debs, the poor things, it's a real anti-climax. I feel sorry for the teachers too - they're faced with an awful power over their students' futures. Some will be easy to grade, others - well I wouldn't fancy having to do it.

@Joolsin - where would they go to school for half a year, and how tough to try to remain motivated for that further length of time, only to have to compete with LC 2021 students as they'd be too late to enter college in 2020.

What is going to happen is they will be offered a deferred place if they get the points for the course they want. So rather than competing with next year's students, they would be taking a place from next year's students and making it harder for them to get in as reduced places = higher points. If they're being given the option to sit the exams, they should be able to do that on the originally scheduled dates in july/aug. There would be a small number of students so they could easily be corrected in time.

He can sit exam in one or two subjects not happy with grade and use a combination of both for his CAO. In theory he has 2 chances .

Yes, that is the case. I'm really pissed off about this as it means that my ds and his classmates, who have already missed 2.5 months of teaching, will be further disadvantaged as the places these deferred students get will push the points up for them in 2021.

If you're aiming for a traditional university course then the grades/points are obviously important but there will be a lot of additional places in many courses this year with no foreign students so points will go down anyway.

Most undergraduate courses other than medicine have very few international students. The vast majority of international students are doing post-grad courses. There are probably one or two e

With regard to starting university in 2020 first years may not be starting till after Halloween anyway . Most lectures will be online or remote. Graduations are online !

They are likely to start with everyone else now as they reason for the late start was the delay in LC results.

Most lectures will be online or remote.

Semester 1 will be mainly online as with the current social distancing guidelines, they will only be able to fit approx 10% of capacity in a lecture hall with fixed seating, and 25% in one with moveable seating.

That all said, I really feel sorry for this year's leaving cert students and their parents. It's pretty crap. But nobody in the department seems to be thinking of the implications down the line for next year's class. While I think the government has generally handled the crisis well, they have made a dog's dinner of education.

While I think the government has generally handled the crisis well, they have made a dog's dinner of education.

I completely agree, @OchonAgusOchonO

What are the likely implications for next year's Leaving Cert class? Does anyone know?

Depending on how many decide to sit exams, there will likely be higher points for popular courses. The students who sit the exams will be the ones who don't get their first choice course so if they improve they will effectively reserve a place for 2021 and take it off one of the class of 21.

This year's 5th years are probably in a much worse situation academically than the 6th years. The 6th years have mainly completed their courses whereas the 5th years have missed loads. My ds hasn't been getting a huge amount of work from his teachers.

Thanks ochon. I hadn't thought of that but makes sense. My DS has been getting work but has done very little.

We were chatting to DHs nephew yesterday who was absolutely beaming about the leaving cert being cancelled and school being finished for good. He said he can't believe how happy he feels . He had been doing okayish academically at school but really felt that he didn't fit in at school socially and said he has already been feeling so much happier in himself

@SparkyBlue - it depends on the child really, and what they want to do after school and how they get on with their teachers generally. I know my dd, who did the LC last year, would have been gutted, although I expect her calculated grades would have probably been much the same as what she got. The reason she would have been gutted is because she went for a high points course. The research in the UK shows that predicted grades tend to be higher than actual grades so if it's similar here, calculated grades would probably result in more random allocation on those courses which would have stressed her out.

I have a number of friends with dc doing the LC. The reactions are mixed. Those who have worked reasonably consistently, so grades are likely to reflect actual marks, and who would probably have gotten their course easily anyway, are less upset that those going for highly competitive courses or those who didn't do a huge amount to work in 5th year or in school but would have put on a burst at the end.

@OchonAgusOchonO yes that's probably true I just thought he seemed full of life and I couldn't blame him as I personally hated secondary school and didn't give two hoots about the leaving. I still think it could have been sat as the students sit well apart while doing it and if they did something like only one exam per day with people to leave the premises straight afterwards then it could have happened. I personally feel his year could have been the most level playing field in years as people wouldn't have had as much access to extra grinds etc so a lot really would have been up to the individual as to how much they have been doing themselves the past while.

I am not a secondary teacher but here's my understanding of it. It's not purely down to teachers giving a h1/2 etc. Teachers have to rank the students. The department will look at the average amount of h1s (and so on) in each subject over the past 3 years in the school and adjust grades accordingly. Grades have always been made to fit a bell curve and this will be no different.

I feel very sorry for very academic kids in less academic schools. They could really get screwed here as the previous years may not have done well. Meanwhile the wasters in academic schools might get inflated marks...I also think that ranking students will be hard for teachers.

Such a shame that the department caved to pressure on this.

@SionnachRua - Yes, you're right about how the marks are allocated. However, they will be ranked within the class, as well as having a grade predicted by the teacher, so they will be placed in the bell curve based on teachers' perceptions rather than a totally objective rating. It still allows a level of subjectivity, even if they are basing it on grades over 2 years. You're also absolutely right about the strong students in poor schools, many of which will have a high proportion of disadvantaged kids. As usual, they are being left behind. I think the wasters in good schools are less likely to do well as they will be ranked against classmates.

My older ds was very strategic in his LC. For one of his broader subjects, he decided which parts of the course he would cover and which he wouldn't. He did no homework or study for tests in the parts he wasn't covering. He got an A2 in the subject but a calculated grade would have been nowhere near that.

Such a shame that the department caved to pressure on this.

I agree. They simply listened to the loudest voices.

@SparkyBlue - That's great that it's had a positive effect on him. Our school system tries to fit all shape pegs into a round hole, which does a disservice to kids with different strengths.

I agree they could have run the exams if they just thought it through properly. I'm not so sure about the level playing field though. My ds is still getting grinds on zoom. He also has a dedicated study space and access to a laptop. Loads of kids don't have that. Some of them are looking after younger kids while parents work or their parent is using the only laptop to work on or they don't have space to put a desk etc.

@OchonAgusOchonO yes you will always have that. My sister had to light the fire(pre gas heating lol)make the dinner and look after me and same with others that we knew as all our parents were working but they all did absolutely fine and no one is left traumatized from it. So you will never have a completely level playing field I agree but I do think those with a certain determination and drive can thrive in these situations

@SparkyBlue - So you will never have a completely level playing field I agree but I do think those with a certain determination and drive can thrive in these situations

Absolutely. They will usually do well and deserve much more credit for overcoming the difficulties they face. It's the more ordinary student, who isn't sure what they want to do and who doesn't have the advantages, that will get left behind. I think it's particularly a problem for boys as they mature later than girls.

The leaving cert and points system are inherently unfair but I don't think any other system would be any fairer.

Oh I agree, some kids are very strategic and do their best in the final exam - which is a great idea for them!

I've seen secondary teachers discuss students who will opt to sit exams. Do they have to prep them for these? They won't have the time. I also saw talk about kids who take subjects externally (like those who sit Polish as they speak it at home). Who gives them their grades?

Tbqh I feel sorrier for next year's 6th years than the current crop. I think there will be a lot of students deferring and thus a tougher points race in 2021.

@OchonAgusOchonO interesting that you
mention boys maturing later we have found in our wider family that most people with the most successful careers / higher paid jobs have done third level as mature students. My own husband did as well so one thing I feel very strongly about is that education is life long there is no "most important exam you will ever sit is the leaving "coming from my house. Two male cousins who believe me were completely written off academically have surprised and surpassed all expectations . Sorry I'm going off tangent a bit but I do think it's important to gain perspective and let the people due to sit exams know that this isn't the be all and everything

@SionnachRua - I've seen secondary teachers discuss students who will opt to sit exams. Do they have to prep them for these?

I assume not as they will be busy teaching next year's students.

I also saw talk about kids who take subjects externally (like those who sit Polish as they speak it at home). Who gives them their grades?

I don't think they will get grades unless they are getting classes of some description. I don't think the non-curricular languages are very fair on the rest of the students as they don't seem to mark to a bell curve in the same way they do for other subjects. In 2018, 63.7% achieved H1in Russian, compared to 7.3% in Spanish, 5.2% in German and 5.7% in French. It gives bilingual students a pretty much guaranteed high mark in one subject.

Tbqh I feel sorrier for next year's 6th years than the current crop. I think there will be a lot of students deferring and thus a tougher points race in 2021.

Yes, I agree. My ds is going into 6th year. He's capable but a bit of a lazy sod so I expect he could be in trouble as he's planning on a pretty popular course.

@SparkyBlue - Sorry I'm going off tangent a bit but I do think it's important to gain perspective and let the people due to sit exams know that this isn't the be all and everything

Absolutely agree. That said, if they know what they want to do, it's generally an easier and quicker route if they go straight into uni.

However, I'm a lecturer and I really love mature students. They bring an awful lot to the class and can result in a much better work ethic for the class overall. I had an undergraduate class a few years ago that was outstanding. That was due in no small way to the fact there were more mature students than normal in the class.