Moving back to Ireland from the UK with a primary-age child — Irish

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Namechanged as we haven’t yet told our families! Moving back to Ireland after 20 years abroad, and have a child who will be going into second class in the Irish system after being educated in England. We’ve got a school place we’re happy with, but haven’t yet talked to the Head or class teacher.

Can anyone who’s done this give me any advice on how you got your child up to speed on Irish from zero? And any other advice on moving from an English state primary to an Irish primary?

Go raibh maith agat!

We came back last year and DS went into 3rd class. Irish has been tricky as mine is non existent, so I got a tutor who caught him up quickly. They don't start Irish til 1st class now, so DC won't be far behind, and it's much more basic than what I remember from school, so if you remember any Irish, you'll be fine. Otherwise class work in English and maths is slightly behind English curriculum, so makes for an easy transfer.
Biggest issue for DS was his perception of being held back a year as the numbers were the same! No amount of explaining could get through to him.
Other things DS loved was wearing PE uniform to school on PE days, much more sport (although is in all boys primary so might just be his school) and being the youngest despite an October birthday. Kids start much later here now.

My family moved to Ireland when I was starting 5th class (age 10). I didn't have to do Irish and instead did writing while irish was being taught.
Started 6th class and decided I was bored of the writing for an hour every day. I started learning irish aged 11 in 6th class so the last class before secondary school. I found it to be an easy language to learn and as it was taught in school each day I picked it up quickly.
I went on to get an A in Irish in the leaving cert. I'm not naturally good at learning languages and didn't do so well in French so just found Irish easier to learn.

I think you child is exempt from Irish if they didn't start their formal education here.

Oops. Think I'm wrong. Sorry

Biggest issue for DS was his perception of being held back a year as the numbers were the same! No amount of explaining could get through to him.

Yes, we've had this conversation about twenty times already! I keep hissing 'But there are two years of Foundation in Ireland!'

@BrexitIsAShitShow, I am so with you on your username. No, he's definitely not exempt from Irish. Which I'm pleased about as I genuinely want him to learn it -- if we'd come home when he was younger, I'd have considered a Gaelscoil, but I think it would be a bit much to start school mid-year in a new country in a new language.

I have rusty school Irish, but will be able to help him. His father, alas, despite doing Leaving Cert in the same distant year as me (if I say we are among the Peig generations, that will give you an idea), is more of an 'An bhfuil cead agam dul amach?' level.

@Whatstodo2019, that's interesting. I've always picked up other languages easily, and never found Irish difficult, although I was incredibly badly taught -- but for some reason I find the idea of starting to teach DS it much more intimidating than French, which he's just started this year. Possibly because I have no memory of being taught the basics...?

@turkeyboots -- do they really not start learning Irish until first class now? I had no idea! Is that in all primaries?

(And tell me, anyone in general -- are many or most primaries now co-ed? The school DS is going to is, because again it's what he's used to here, and one of his best friends is a girl, but I wondered whether that was at all unusual now, as my old primary has merged with a neighbouring boys' school...)

OP it's possible that when your ds starts doing irish, it will all come back into your memory! This is happening to me with my ds now who is in senior infants.
In ds school they start learning irish in junior infants and are doing so through an app. He is picking it up quite easily aswell.
Ds is in a mixed village school (100 students). In my area there are only separate boys and girls schools in the town's.

We're not Irish, but my son joined 3rd class earlier this year - he's doing Irish now (I think you'd have to be at least 10 when starting to be exempt). The school is very good - him and a couple of other kids are pulled off to the side to do more basic work, and I'm leaving it with them to see if they think it would be worth him having some extra classes. He goes to an English speaking school, rather than one of the Gaelic ones, so I suspect he will, because he's not going to get fluent learning Irish a few lessons a week!

My younger DS is in Junior Infants - and they do a little bit - there's a phrase of the week at assembly, and they have a lesson or two with easy stuff like buying stuff in shops.

I confess I've never had a problem picking up romance languages enough to get by, but Irish is just not settling in at all, so I'm of very little help to them.

We only looked at mixed schools, and we've ended up in a Church of Ireland one that we're very happy with. Friends go to Catholic ones, which do seem to be more likely to be single sex from what I've seen/spoken about - but there's such a breadth of offering here, that I think anyone would be able to find something they liked.

The only issue I have is the incredibly short-feeling school days - I pick mine up at 1pm and 2pm!

Oh, I could hold a basic conversation in Irish this minute (well, as long as it wasn't with a Donegal speaker, because that flummoxes me utterly ), but I wouldn't have the slightest idea how to start teaching DS in any methodical way. I'll talk to his teacher and buy the text books and that will give me a better idea of what the approach is.

@turkeyboots, one or two other people have also said that I should find DS slightly ahead compared to his peers in Ireland in core subjects, which would be a relief if true, because I'd like him to have a slightly easy ride academically at first, what with moving countries and education systems.

@butteryellow, The only issue I have is the incredibly short-feeling school days - I pick mine up at 1pm and 2pm!

Yes, this school finishes at 2, whereas he's at school here from 8.50 till 3.10! (I don't think we finished school that early when I was in primary school in Ireland...)

I think we're going to like the school very much, I'm just very aware that we've not really had any contact with the Irish primary school system since we were in it ourselves. For instance, I had completely forgotten we have to buy our own textbooks and stationery, because I'm so used to them being provided here.

I think that depends - due to school mucking about, DS1 jumped a year when we moved to Ireland, yet got very good reports at the end of the year.

DS2 originally started Senior Infants, but had to be put back because his reading/writing (having been in reception/kinder for 2 years previous to that) wasn't at the standard of the rest of the senior infants.

Having said that - DS1 is a diligent studier, whereas DS2 is very much more of an 'only works when cornered' child - so that might just be my two, rather than the school systems in general!

Ha yes! All the book buying was a shock.. I just took the list into a local bookshop and threw myself on their mercy :)

I do feel for my elder - his rucksack weighs a ton with the books he carts back and forth.

The books are a shocker. DD started first year this year and I needed a shopping trolley to get the books back the the car from the shop!
Look up secondaries soon, I think that "name on the list since birth" method of applications are being got rid of, but there is no consistent application date, method or single application point. So it's a lot of work.

DSs school is on the same site as the girls primary, but with over 1000 kids between them, are split into boys and girls. Have been very happy with it overall, but he'll be going to co-ed secondary. They do v v basic Irish in infants, but his school don't teach it formally til first class.

Interesting that some of you with experience with English and Irish schools would state the Irish students are ahead for their age? With all the talk of grammars and OFSTED and god knows what else, I would have presumed English schools were way ahead.
Also - You don't technically have to start school in Ireland until end of age 5 (think you have to start before 6). Dd was a September baby so 4, turning 5. But I could easily have started her at 5 turning 6.

Can I ask the couple or so who commented about the levels they're at between Ireland and England are we talking London schools or just the curriculum in general?
I've also noticed Irish kids have longer holidays and shorter school days, so something's not adding up if one country is behind the other?
Not a provocative post - just I would have thought the opposite was the case.

Just to mention, if you're on a low income, there is a back-to-school-allowance you can apply for - it's a one off payment - maybe €300 which helps to go towards book fees and uniform fees. Payable in August maybe. It's only for people on low income or benefits though.

I will be interested to compare the two. I’ve felt that DS’s year at school last year (at a lovely small village school) was rather joylessly oriented towards SATS, which I think is insane for six and seven year olds. And I’m not a bit impressed with the dimwit evangelical C of E stuff that unfortunately filters into school from the vicar, and which makes even the nuns I had in Ireland in the 70s and 80s look comparatively sophisticated. At least no one told us Genesis was literally true...

They start Irish in JI but it tends to be spoken and colouring. I wouldn't think there'll be much to catch up on by 1st class. From 1st class it can involve written work. The standard of Irish across primaries varies hugely.

Most primaries are co-ed. But not all.

The days are short. The holidays are long.

Some schools have book rental schemes, some schools buy the all or some of the books and charge you and some you buy everything yourself. There is no consistency.

Similarly some schools have uniforms and some don't. Uniforms can be "formal" or tracksuit based.

There has been a notable increase in the number of children starting at 5 rather than 4 (though they can be between 4 and 6 according to the DoES). Schools have different cut-off points. For example my kids' school used to be "4 by 1st Sept" (ie at the point of starting) but is now "4 by 1st May before the Sept you start". In our school about half JI will be at or about 5 when they start. That's higher than average though.

As another poster said, get the kids names down for secondary schools as soon as you get back. The secondary schools run individual systems (see the theme emerging here?) so some you can put a name down as soon as the child is born, some not til they're in 5th class. Some secondary schools offer places as early as 3rd class, some not til 6th class. Again, no consistent approach. Though i think they're consistent in all looking for a deposit when you accept a place.

Be aware that "free education" is a myth. There'll be a so-called "Voluntary Contribution" but in fact it isn't really voluntary (or isn't presented that way). It can vary from a relatively small amount up to €300+ While it irks, it is also what allows schools to function. Similar for fund-raising. It is totally inequitable as better-resourced parents make for better resourced schools.

Most primary schools provide milk at break (just like they did 20 years ago). They don't provide food. DEIS schools usually have sandwiches provided. But that's it.

@Venus I don't know that you can say one country is ahead or behind the other. There'll be huge variation within schools in either country as well as variations from country to country. The LC/A-level and university access systems are so different that even at that stage you're comparing apples and oranges.

I need to put my mini-seven year old’s name down for secondary? God Almighty. What happened to shuffling along to whatever was down the road, eighties style? Next thing you’ll be telling me is that Gay Byrne’s no longer hosting the Late Late, Peig is off the curriculum and that the Angelus has become a weird montage of people looking suddenly into space on the golf course, as if worrying they’d left the oven on.

I didn't know about the need to apply for secondary school early. Does this only apply to private secondary schools? Our non private secondary schools seem to be holding enrolment nights this month for those starting next September.

I know it can vary by area/county though so I am genuinely interested, don't want my ds to miss out

Interesting that some of you with experience with English and Irish schools would state the Irish students are ahead for their age? With all the talk of grammars and OFSTED and god knows what else, I would have presumed English schools were way ahead.

The English curriculum is inappropriate for age across much of primary school, especially since they brought in Gove's changes a few years ago. Some kids can cope but many can't, so the number of kids that are flagged as "falling behind" is quite high. And the kids that can cope only do so with a LOT of instruction and support, which requires way more hours in school. Throw in SATS and you have little time for music and art and play, particularly by the end of primary school.

Ireland's primary curriculum is appropriate for age, and progresses at a similar rate to what England used to have in their pre-Gove curriculum. Most children can cope with it without intensive support. Music and art also have a much more important role than in English schools and there are no SATS to squeeze them out of the timetable. School hours are short and holidays long, similar to a lot of other countries, yet the curriculum gets covered just fine in this time.

The net result is that a child aged 8-9 in Irish 3rd class might be covering for the first time something that is covered by a child aged 6-7 in English year 2, but the Irish child is able to learn it far more easily as they are more mature.

By age 10, Irish pupils perform ahead of English pupils on international benchmarking exercises for Maths, Science and reading (TIMSS and PIRLS). And Irish children are far happier than English children in UNICEF's child wellbeing index. The evidence is pretty strong for which school system is better.

Yes it depends where you are. And no it isn't just fee-paying schools. There's a very well regarded (free) girls secondary near here and people seem to ring from the maternity hospital to put their new born daughter's name down Some schools just get oversubscribed and when they're full, they're full.

It really isn't helped by there being no common system. Some schools act as feeders to particular schools which gives priority. Some schools have catchment area rules in place. There are still hangovers of the "did your parent or relative attend". The whole administrative side is crying out for review and standardised policy.

My local secondaries are a mix of on list since birth, feeder school only and lottery selection. Some have application deadlines in 4th, some in 5th and some in 6th. Generally the higher preforming, the madder the entry process.
One Educate Together secondary here opperates a physical queue. You need to be there on 1 May of 5th class with EUR 150 in cash, forms filled out. The guards were called to the queue this year as over 300 parents there for 150 spaces.
Madness.

One Educate Together secondary here operates a physical queue. You need to be there on 1 May of 5th class with EUR 150 in cash, forms filled out. The guards were called to the queue this year as over 300 parents there for 150 spaces.

Dear God.

Thanks everyone, I am reading with fascination, and relaying the choicest bits over the phone to DH, who is away. He wants to know if bribes work as he claims he did all his life's queueing at Féile back in its Trip to Tipp days.

I can see this is going to be a steep learning curve.

No advice but my son just sat in the class for four years. I said to him "just sit there and dont be rude".

Dont do bribes no!

It is just the way it is now. Standard application forms, deadline dates, criteria, pps numbers, proof of address, birth certs, priority lists.... schools working within their processes. So it is just ADMIN.
Not like it was in the Ireland we grew up in.

I applied to every primary we could feasibly have got to and dc1 got 2 places so i could choose.

Educate Together is just fashionable right now. Not the only option.