Sick of narrative that lockdowns were pointless

[Bagzzz]

I think lots of people are forgetting quite how scary the early days were, overwhelmed hospitals and exhausted (and now a lot burnt out) medical staff.

Many mistakes were made and some things that might have have been avoided but we know with the benefit of hindsight.
Scientists if not politicians were doing their best.

Maybe could distinguish later lockdowns but they weren’t done lightly either, knowing it would affect mental health and business.

@helford

"The majority of them were not of working age, no. Average age of death was 80+, age is the biggest risk factor BY FAR. So we absolutely do know who is vulnerable and who is not. "

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Average age of death from Covid was 82.4 years

fullfact.org/health/number-of-death-certificates-with-only-covid-19-is-a-bad-estimate-of-the-death-toll/

Average age of death in general is 80.9 years.

Long Covid is not overblown. Fake news from you there

Long Covid studies rely on surveys, notoriously unreliable. It’s likely just post-viral fatigue, which can happen with any other virus.

But Sweden did worse than other Nordic countries didn’t it?

Yea, they admit that they didn’t protect the elderly as well as they should have and this is reflected in that difference. They didn’t have excess mortality in the under 70s, in fact it was reduced:

In Sweden, the all-cause mortality rates in 2020 were similar to or higher than in previous years for people older than 70 years, but lower for people younger than 70 years

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/14034948211047137

Florida did focussed protection better tbh and is a good model for a balanced pandemic response imho.

No evidence it’s any more than post-viral fatigue.

Do you have any credentials for these sweeping statements, minty?

@Reindeersnooker

"but complaining endlessly that it's ruining your child's life because they're so unsupported, while simultaneously arguing endlessly on the internet, suggests that you're not doing everything you can to parent them at a time when parents needed to be present. Just something I noticed."

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On that logic can the entire Education topic on MN be deleted? I mean who are these parents wasting time posting concerns about their children's education when they should be doing everything they can to educate them.

In fact why not delete all parenting topics on MN, because on this logic parents need to stop raising concerns on such platforms and just get on with parenting?

No, it was an all day activity. That was the part I found strange. Got the concept?

@MintyFreshOne

Long Covid studies rely on surveys, notoriously unreliable. It’s likely just post-viral fatigue, which can happen with any other virus.

The Yellow Card system is survey-based. Are you a happy proponent of that though? Given the history of your posts here, it would seem you'd love it.

And BTW - just because you don't like the term 'Long Covid' doesn't make it any less of a reality.

@Grumpybutfunny

“Performing risky clinical trials on prisoners and removing their human rights” : I don’t even have words for this. Any developed country worldwide would see this as an abhorrent thought process. It would go against the human rights convention. And you also advocate the death penalty.

Then in the same post you are lauding the Great Barrington Declaration. With the sweeping generalisation of a vulnerable person being ‘an old grandparent’ v’s a child.

The vulnerable amongst us come from all walks of life. They are not just ageing grannies. They have families, friends - they can not be put in a group, segregated and have their rights taken away. Prior to the vaccine - I read an estimate that 20 - 30% were vulnerable to severe illness, and then - how does that impact your ‘fit’ groups when the vulnerable are all taking up bed spaces and resources? I know two thirty year old parents who had no idea they would be ‘vulnerable’ - and were both hospitalised with no one to care for their 2 year old child.

And then you have Long Covid - again I know a teen who contracted Covid during the first wave. It took her a very long time to recover, and she has subsequently had problems with her hearing and balance.

Lockdowns can work well : South Korea, New Zealand. In Italy you have two regions where there was a delayed lockdown v’s a quick lockdown and the resulting difference that made to the death toll.

Sweden relied on voluntary changes of behaviour and they had a compliant population. I don’t think that would have worked in a country that was densely populated or with many families living closely together - or countries with a lack of expertise/bed space/resources or in countries with a high level of distrust in their government.

But I still think the biggest argument is scientific consensus opinion. A correctly implemented lockdown will save lives - and help control the spread of infection until a solution is found (the vaccine).

I’m wary of fringe science - because it’s often infiltrated by ‘scientists’ with thought processes such as - “let’s take away the rights of prisoners and perform risky clinical trials n them” - which is why peer reviewed, consensus opinion IS the basic tenet of science.

If lockdowns don’t work full stop - it will become consensus opinion - and that hasn’t happened. What has happened - is consideration as to how they could/should be better implemented in the future - if we are in the same situation again.

And where have I denigrated the vaccine? It’s great for many. Or do you just assume I’m somehow totally anti-vax?

Get back on topic. Lockdowns are terrible and the usual suspects are using post-viral fatigue (it won’t be a ‘mass disabling event, sorry’) as their last refuge because they don’t want to admit they were wrong about pretty much everything.

Do you have any credentials for these sweeping statements, minty?

I doubt you are, yet here you are making unproven claims that long Covid is somehow different than any other post-viral syndrome. How is Covid that special and unique among viruses?

Quite the reach.

A lot of words when you are totally wrong.

South Korea never locked down. They relied on other methods. It’s strange how confident you are about something that never happened.

A lot of people also think Japan locked down, but they legally could not force businesses to shut down and they had no WFH culture.

I note you did not address my posts
about how tens of millions Africans fell into poverty because of lockdowns.

New Zealand was (initially) successful because of border closures. But you cannot be isolated from the world forever, China is certainly learning this harsh lesson right now.

@MintyFreshOne

“South Korea ordered schools to close from Tuesday in the capital Seoul and surrounding areas as it battles its worst outbreak of novel coronavirus since the pandemic began, surpassing the previous peak in February.”

Depends how you define lockdown. So I’m not ‘totally wrong”. But seeing as one of the biggest arguments against lockdown is school closures… They responded quickly, and I think that’s the key difference.

Strange how confident how you are to dismiss Long Covid when it’s recognised by NHS on their guidance.

Africa is very, very different to the UK. Covid unmanaged would have had an enormous impact on lives as would a lockdown. Senegal implemented an early lockdown and faired better. Africa has also experienced lockdown situations previously for other diseases - Ebola.

Unmanaged covid in Africa would have had minimal impact. Young, healthy populations were never at any risk. The biggest at risk group in Africa would probably be those living with HIV, for whom prospects are very poor anyway. And there are no healthcare systems to overwhelm.
Uganda has literally just successfully tackled an ebola outbreak, lockdown was NOT the main strategy.

@Kabalagala

But Uganda DID enforce a lockdown to prevent deaths.

www.nytimes.com/2022/12/08/world/africa/ebola-uganda.html

I agree that the way it is implemented is vital, to minimise suffering - but I don’t agree that lockdowns are pointless and don’t stop people dying.

Contact tracing and isolation was the main method used. Stop trying to compare ebola and covid, it is meaningless as they are so different.

@Kabalagala

I disagree. There are various scientific articles where containment of viruses - Ebola/Covid etc are discussed and compared.

It would be ridiculous not to learn lessons from how viral containment works/doesn’t work in certain situations and then not compare/contrast with others.

odi.org/en/insights/covid-19-five-lessons-from-ebola/

The recent ebola lockdown was neither effective or enforced, largely due to the fallout from covid lockdowns.
And as far as covid lockdowns in Africa, surely lockdown was primarily to slow the spread so as not to overwhelm healthcare? When there is no healthcare in the first place, there is no point. Uganda for example is still claiming only 3000 covid deaths. On what planet is that possibly true. Clue - its not, there are major issues with how data is collected and represented.

@Kabalagala

I agree with what you are saying. But to evidence lockdown in an African country - where there is a lack of health care, socio economic difficulties, lack of reliable data - and then state “therefore lockdowns don’t work on a global level (whilst dismissing countries that were more successful)” - is wrong.

@MintyFreshOne Its difficult to know where to start with you, pretty much all of what you say is unproven and are your beliefs, nothing more.

Long Covid is a form of post viral syndrome, a serious condition.
Omicron re infects at an alarming rate.

Millions of people have significant time off for Covid and its associated illnesses.

All the above can be found on either the NHS or Gov.uk sites.

But what you ignore is my question "why did no other country do as you suggest?"

As i said, the real damage is being done by Russia and its war in Ukraine.

Depends how you define lockdown. So I’m not ‘totally wrong”. But seeing as one of the biggest arguments against lockdown is school closures… They responded quickly, and I think that’s the key difference

Redefine terms and you too can always be right 😂 School closures are also
dumb but that’s not what people mean by lockdowns. It’s just one aspect

Strange how confident how you are to dismiss Long Covid when it’s recognised by NHS on their guidance

yeah so is fibromyalgia, so not sure you’ve got a great argument there.

Africa is very, very different to the UK. Covid unmanaged would have had an enormous impact on lives as would a lockdown. Senegal implemented an early lockdown and faired better

So you do admit that lockdowns forced tens of millions of Africans into poverty don’t you? About two million Senegalese alone have fallen into poverty due to lockdowns. Great work 🙄

Africa has also experienced lockdown situations previously for other diseases - Ebola

Not pre-pandemic, and after they are quite hesitant to re-impose them:

This apologetic article for lockdowns even admits that in modern times, it only happened in China during SARS: www.news18.com/news/buzz/covid-19-didnt-introduce-lockdown-to-the-world-a-look-back-at-the-history-3072605.html

The real question is why WHO threw out its pre-pandemic guidance, based on experience, for completely untested lockdowns.

But what you ignore is my question "why did no other country do as you suggest?

Several American states such as Florida did, and I have repeatedly answered this for you, and you have totally ignored it.

Also, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan did not impose lockdowns. They used other measures (that I think were also ineffective btw).

I don’t know why everyone has the impression that they did. Maybe they just conflate China with ‘Asia’ 🤦‍♀️

We will be reinfected with Covid, many times throughout our life. This shouldn’t scare you at all unless you literally believe it will be a ‘mass disabling event’ that I see bandied about among hysterics. I’m waiting for that just as I’m waiting for us all to die from the vaccine 😂😂😂

Now when people test positive for Covid, they aren’t required to be out for weeks. A couple days for most, some no time at all if they aren’t sick.

@MintyFreshOne what do you mean by your comment on fibromyalgia?

@toomuchlaundry

I would even bother - it’s like trying to reason with a pigeon.