Strep A and Covid

[wondersun]

Children have been repeatedly infected and exposed to covid for what seems like forever now

Two years ago they had some months remote learning, more than half of which were spring/summer months

After repeat covid infections, with a virus which is known to damage immune systems, we see a FIVE FOLD increase in Strep A bacterial infections and an alarming increase in deaths (6 child deaths in this winter so far, compared with an average of 1/2 in an average winter)

Media full of headlines linking this rise to lockdowns 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

No mention of the immune damaging virus that the government has allowed to let rip in unmitigated schools. The virus which is STILL ripping through schools

No mention of the fact that the biggest increase in strep A is in our largely unvaccinated under 10 population

No attempt made to explain away the obvious links to covid; it’s surreal, covid is just not mentioned

Its still a new virus, even without the increasing body of evidence re damage to people’s immune systems, you’d think the ongoing airborne pandemic would rate a mention…

And there is so much we could be doing to protect children and keep their world’s open but the government is doing nothing, if anything they seem to actually be pro-infection

Its just 🤯🤯🤯 and 😡😡😡

This is contrary to the modern understanding of the immune system. Outcomes from infection are better if infection is delayed as late as possible in childhood. And vaccination is always preferable to infection for delivering better outcomes. British science is falling to far behind the rest of the world in its rather backward belief in the benefits of infection. The immune system is not a muscle, it is a multi layered intelligent, programmable system with multiple feedback loops.

Hand washing is of limited use for aerosol spread diseases, and there was no social distancing in schools, no masks in primary and near useless masking in secondary. Children and households with children have probably been the most exposed to viruses that are not covid over the past 2 years. Schools were a hotbed of stuff that I seem to remember MNers were insisting was not covid just everyday coughs and colds in the autumn terms of 2020 and 2021. Not to mention that we’ve had high levels of covid circulating continuously for 2.5 years.

We probably could have avoided the second school closure. But the truth is we didn’t want to change our behaviour so that kids could go to school. Nor did we want to put mitigations in schools to avoid them closing. So we let the cases rise until the point that we were so close to crisis the only way to bring them down quicker enough was to shut schools.

There could and should have been more mental health support at the time and after and a lot more public health messaging about strategies for managing mental health during lockdown. But ignoring children’s physical health isn’t good either. Given the known and unknown long term sequelae of covid even with a mild initial infection I don’t think we can afford not to put HEPA filters in classrooms. How much is too much to pay for children’s long term health?

I don't understand medical stuff hugely. I have no background in science but my thinking is this...

It is because the number of infections are going up, rather than the number of infections are the same but bad outcomes are going up.

If it was case numbers similar but bad outcomes increasing then it'd seem likely it was down to damaged immune systems that are unable to fight it off.

But because it's number of infections going up, it seems more likely that it's linked to lower immunity from lockdowns.

If it was damaged immune systems the surely the numbers of deaths Vs. cases would be higher. But it's not, it's actually less.

As I said, not a medical professional. And willing to be proven wrong (by someone that is a medical professional in this field).

Agree with the people who seem a bit more balanced - no one knows why there’s an increase. It’s highly contagious in close quarters, so social distancing would have slowed scarlet fever / strep A down the same as it slowed covid down, so there’s bound to be a spike at some point - scarlet fever goes in cycles, there’s a spike every few years.

However, even if it is because of children having had covid, there’s nothing we can or could have done about it. No country got it completely right, and no country has managed zero covid - the only country still trying to has got it much more wrong than pretty much every other country.

So basically, given that we know covid zero was/is impossible, and the vaccines have not worked very well at stopping/reducing infection or spread, what were we ever meant to do about it?

The number of igas cases seems to be in proportion with the number of strep cases but the UKHSA did mention in their latest report that the proportion of igas cases that are children is increased. Normally it’s 5-10% it’s currently 25%. Which might suggest something is going on.

The immune system is not damaged by lockdown, population susceptibility is increased.

It is disheartening to see how so many parents on here are unwilling to open their eyes up to the reality that it's not been good for our kids to get sick with COVID multiple times and that the government has been wrong to insist sick kids return to school after only 3 days isolation, at peak infectiousness.

There was a surge of RSV last winter, so they've had plenty of exposure to illness since schools were actually closed. Sweden had no lockdown,, they are having exactly the same pediatric care crisis.

For those saying nothing could have been done differently: rubbish. Just look at any country is South East Asia where masking was required in schools till very recently and isolation required till testing negative: they've not let their children get infected 2-3-4+ times, they don't have shortages of PICU beds, and they don't have Chinese lockdown. Masks are not harmful, they save lives. End of.

I feel desperately sorry that we've let them down so badly by making them the country's primary vectors of infection to achieve some unachievable "herd immunity". What lifetime of ill health have we set them up for?

I know perfectly well that the government messed lots of things up. What I don’t understand is how you’re so certain that this wave of strep A is directly caused by covid lowering immunity. What gives you this absolute certainty? Would you be willing to accept any other causes (or combination of causes)?

We were experiencing a Strep A surge pre-covid too, i believe its been climbing at various rates since 2010ish. That's not to say that the covid/lockdown situation hasn't exacerbated things but nor is it that simple. The new Step A strain in England and Wales with increased toxin production is also a big piece of current puzzle, but again not the whole story as the Step A increase has been observed internationally. All worrying nonetheless.

I'm not saying the wave is caused by COVID lowering immunity. I'm saying severe outcomes of strep A are much more likely due to lowered immunity. People often get bacterial infections after viral ones. Plus kids are getting all kinds of infections in quick succession because they are being forced to school sick.

COVID exhausts your T cells at least for a few months post infection, they are important for your immunity. And COVID affects the tonsils. A brief explainer here twitter.com/lisa_iannattone/status/1598901321980997632?t=UBGlrRl_64SI1uGvDHeNhw&s=19

Of course there might be something else at play, but the precautionary principle has always suggested that we shouldn't have left our kids to get infected multiple times with a novel virus, the sinister effects of which we are gradually unveiling. It's not too late to stop continued repeat infections.

Ah well done for including phrases like “more likely”. That was much more measured than your first post.

"We had almost two full years of social distancing, masks, obsessive hand washing"

Not in schools there wasn't. Masks were never mandatory in schools and only teachers had to socially distance and that was impossible in practical terms.

If Covid really does deplete the immune system, why are we not seeing a mass outbreak of fungal infections across the population?

I don’t know what it is.

but I never ever use sanitiser on my kids hands, I don’t “anti bac” anything, I give them vitamin D3 all winter, I try to avoid unprocessed foods.

do I worry? Yes of course. But my gut instinct is that a kids immune system need to be robust. So I don’t think restrictions are the answer

It’s obvious that the media / government won’t mention Covid as a contributing factor as it would either cause panic or mean more would have to be done to prevent infections in children who are in the main unvaccinated. The only option is to get us to live with it and suits multiple agendas to blame lockdown only which was costly and unpopular anyway. If anyone’s in any doubt there are plenty of doctors in numerous countries shouting about the effect of Covid on the immune system. If lockdown ended months ago and this isn’t a new strain of Strep A, why is this only happening now?

@BeethovenNinth the best way to ensure your child's immune system stays robust is to prevent them catching COVID and other respiratory illnesses. There is no benefit to catching those. Really not.

Sanitising hands/using anti-bac relates to the hygiene theory, that by overuse of these things kids are not being exposed to microbes and dirt that build immunity to allergens. That's not really contested, no problem letting your kids roll around in dirt. However, letting them catch every virus going without mitigations IS problematic, but that's exactly what's been happening since COVID with schools forcing sick children back in with minimal time off.

There are in places. Nevada off the top of my head. Invasive fungal infections are a known complication of covid and the number of them has shot up during the pandemic.

There’s not really an ‘if’ about covid and immune dysregulation. There’s an absolute ton of evidence and it’s likely pretty close to scientific consensus among immunologists. Which makes it all the weirder that in none of the news reports that I saw on Friday was covid as a likely cause mentioned. Even on the BBC whose scientific reporting is notoriously bad for finding a scientist with a minority view to provide ‘balance’.

Canada is a good place to watch at the moment for an idea of where things might go. Lots of RSV about last year. Pretty much dealt with any immunity gap that might have existed following lock downs.
BIG problems this year. Lots of really really sick kids with RSV. Full children’s hospitals. Filled PICU beds. They are really struggling.
Germany struggling for PICU beds and children’s beds too I think. Less sure about why there though.

Well we cannot stop kids getting covid can we? I’m not prepared to stop them living normally by which I means parties, clubs and schools. I cannot prevent infection and don’t pretend for one minute that sanitiser does anything.

so yes - it’s soap and water, mud and vitamin d in our house. Knock yourself out keeping your kids off

Beethovensninth
...So I don’t think restrictions are the answer
I don't think restrictions are the answer either, but once again the argument seems to be restrictions or nothing, and I don't think this is what a lot of people are saying.
For a long time people have been calling for HEPA systems in schools and I do think Covid being treated as a notifiable disease would help. It seems mad to me that people can send their child in with Covid, when it causes such disruption.

well increased ventilation- I don’t disagree there but do we know realistically how much that will help? (I recall the Scottish government wanted to saw the bottom off fire doors).

I don’t personally think the test/keep off is workable for most people as firstly we can’t keep testing children for every sniffle and secondly how can people hold down a job if they are taking time off every time?

I do worry if there is a consequence to repeated infection but I don’t see the alternative.

I’m sure some one priced up the first of hepa ventilation in schools. I don’t think it was as expensive as most would expect to put it into every classroom. Some schools have already done so.
I’d also put them in hospitals which will help to stop nosocomial spread and reduce staff sickness.

Belgium (I think) are putting into law standards for air quality in indoor public spaces. I think Taiwan so the same. I’ve certainly seen them have hepa purifiers in buses. That would be a long term hope.

Thus will cause money, but covid is a fucker of a virus that will likely cause large scale long term health issues across the population and is going to cost us massive amount in healthcare and sickness benefits if we don’t do something. Spending now could reduce the amount we need to spend to reduce that.

But first what we really need is an honest discussion about the risks of covid in all age groups and the risk of repeated infection. I’m not sure covid is here to stay and just ignoring it is going to cut it.

We aren’t far apart but I would rather live with that risk than have basic freedoms curtailed

my teen has fairly significant mental health problems which I attribute largely to having huge disruption to her late primary and early secondary years. Many of her peers are the same. My daughter developed anorexia and is doing ok but I know that the risks of that long term are high.

so covid is the least of my worries right now as we all sailed through it.

and yes, I do think the lives of the young should be prioritised over the elderly. Call me a Granny slaying psychopath but it’s how I have felt all along. My elderly mum has had her life and a good life. The young have been shafted and it will take a lot more than covid to convince me that we should clip their wings further

Where is the Group A Strep surge in Netherlands, Sweden or Denmark? You know ,those places that didn't close their schools because of covid (ok, very briefly, but less closed than Uk).

I remember seeing a rough costing too and in the grand scheme of things, it didn't seem that much. Longer term effects of covid on organs, immune system etc seem pretty scary and will clip young peoples wings much more than a hepa filter in their classroom. I don't understand the government doing so little - is it bigger impacts on someone else's watch / continuing failed herd immunity / don't care about long term impacts on health and economy? I don't get it.

@BeethovenNinth

and yes, I do think the lives of the young should be prioritised over the elderly. Call me a Granny slaying psychopath but it’s how I have felt all along. My elderly mum has had her life and a good life. The young have been shafted and it will take a lot more than covid to convince me that we should clip their wings further

Lovely thoughts, Beethoven. Just how are your children's wings clipped now? Those children wouldn't even exist without your mum. I'm really not sure what you're objecting to here.