Remember all those posters who said we should 'look east' for how to deal with Covid?

[TypicaIMe]

I wonder if they still think that?

Some of the news coming out of that part of the world is so distressing.

I do think our government made a balls up of it too, and in many respects still are (particularly with regard to CEV people). But hopefully what we're seeing when we 'look east' now will give anyone still desperate for lockdowns and restrictions (and there are still a fair few, sadly) pause for thought.

Thanks

Here's the Twitter thread

mobile.twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1514818345689776143

China is a brutal authoritarian regime.

Have a look at Taiwan, which is a liberal democracy that pursued zero covid and was very successful. Very little economic fallout and life largely normal there throughout.

Now they’re vaccinated and boosted they are moving away from zero covid. They’ve had a tiny tiny number of deaths.

So, the question I have for you, is why are you pointing to an authoritarian regime to prove your point when there is an extremely successful example of a moderate democracy with a zero covid policy right next door?

Wake up. You’re a Tory spin doctor’s dream.

@TheKeatingFive

Imo there are many things that countries in the east did well and which we adopted later eg test and trace and quarantine

No western country made a success of track and trace. And a major reason for that was that our gdpr laws got seriously in the way.

South Korea aced track and trace, but that's a society where government can commandeer phone data, banking data and cctv footage to support it.

Our GDPR laws got in the way? In what way?

Now they’re vaccinated and boosted they are moving away from zero covid.

They aren't pursuing zero covid any more.

So not what we're discussing here. The posters being referred to were still committed to that goal.

Our GDPR laws got in the way? In what way?

In that the government are not legally permitted to access the kind of info that made South Korea's track and trace approach so successful, ie mobile data, bank data, cctv.

@TheKeatingFive

Yea that’s what I said. Now they’re vaccinated and boosted, they’re moving away from zero covid.

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood the point of the thread - I didn’t realise there were people still calling for a zero covid policy.

I completely agree that, at this stage, that’s absurd.

However, in the beginning, with the right systems and procedures in place there’s no reason we couldn’t have been like Taiwan who’ve had less than 50 deaths and never been in lockdown.

We should be looking at them and understanding how they achieved it, in preparation for the next one

However, in the beginning, with the right systems and procedures in place there’s no reason we couldn’t have been like Taiwan who’ve had less than 50 deaths and never been in lockdown.

I don't think that's feasible actually.

Taiwan completely closed their borders. The U.K. could never have legally done that, due to the Good Friday Agreement.

We should be looking at them and understanding how they achieved it, in preparation for the next one

I think cultural, societal and geographical specificity is very important. I'm not sure how much we can learn from the East in reality. Their circumstances were very different.

^I think China did many things well eg when I was waiting in a queue outside the supermarket in April 2020, my husband was going to work, eating in restaurants and meeting friends. The company where he worked only had people working from home for 2/3 weeks.
While there was no vaccine, lockdowns and separating people was the only solution. Once a vaccine programme has been implemented this course can change. The issue in China is concerns regarding the effectiveness of the vaccine and low uptake in the older population, therefore the zero covid policy continues, but it can never be effective.^

I assume the OPs point is that there were still people saying this well into the Omicron wave, when it was incredibly obvious what was going to happen as soon as it got into China. It's one thing saying that about the 2020 situation, particularly if you leave out the reticence to actually admit what was going on in the first place. It's quite another thinking Omicron was going to be controlled.

@TheKeatingFive

not so much spent on vaccines

I don't know where you're getting that from. There have been unprecedented amounts spent on vaccines, and continue to be in research.

We are only currently giving 4th jabs to 75+ and CEV.

We all need six-monthly jabs ar the moment.

We all need six-monthly jabs ar the moment.

That's not what the experts are saying.

The vaccines ability to prevent severe disease has held up incredibly well. The expert bodies clearly don't see the value of cycles of constant boosters to prevent mild infection.

[quote jm901928]@TheKeatingFive

Yea that’s what I said. Now they’re vaccinated and boosted, they’re moving away from zero covid.

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood the point of the thread - I didn’t realise there were people still calling for a zero covid policy.

I completely agree that, at this stage, that’s absurd.

However, in the beginning, with the right systems and procedures in place there’s no reason we couldn’t have been like Taiwan who’ve had less than 50 deaths and never been in lockdown.

We should be looking at them and understanding how they achieved it, in preparation for the next one[/quote]
I agree with looking at what other countries did and preparing for the next pandemic. This was one of the reasons why Taiwan was so successful in its approach: they had experience of SARS and immediately stopped flights coming in from mainland China.
In the UK, well into February, the focus was still on people coming from Wuhan and yet by that stage (actually earlier) the virus was in every province in China.

Never heard anyone say ‘look East’ in RL or in the Media.

"We should look east!" was the catchphrase of certain posters (or likely one poster and name change sockpuppets) for months. They seem to have disappeared now.

Never heard anyone say ‘look East’ in RL or in the Media.

No, it was just on here

@TheKeatingFive

We all need six-monthly jabs ar the moment.

That's not what the experts are saying.

The vaccines ability to prevent severe disease has held up incredibly well. The expert bodies clearly don't see the value of cycles of constant boosters to prevent mild infection.

You must be reading different experts to me, as the vaccines are waning.

But what you are saying is in your opinion it is not necessary to offer further vaccines, so as I said, they will be spending less on vaccines - which you argued with .

Maybe you just argue with everything?

@carefullycourageous as I understand it (and this is very basic layman's terms!), the vaccines are holding up. It's true that antibodies will wane over time but T cell immunity is holding up pretty well. My consultant explained this to me and also said 'they're the important boys'. The ones which protect from severe illness.

Also the more times we catch it, the more we reinforce that protection. I've had it five times now and had four jabs so hopefully I'm bulletproof!

I'm just saying what my consultant said - apologies if the terminology is messy!

You must be reading different experts to me, as the vaccines are waning.

Not against severe disease.

Every country has its own (expert) board that advises on vaccination requirements. I'm not aware of any country that has recommended an additional booster for healthy under 65s, so it would appear that the experts are very much in agreement on this issue.

they will be spending less on vaccines - which you argued with

They are still pouring billions onto research and development for second stage vaccines and vaccines to tackle Corona viruses at more general level. So yes, I argued with your point because it is incorrect.

OP - there are lots of countries in the ‘East’. Do you mean China? Be specific, because different countries have had different strategies. Singapore has done well with a fraction of the deaths of U.K. and opening up once the vaccines and treatments were available.

Their schooling system I think was less affected than U.K. and I think their health system too. They did not do enough for their migrant workers and I hope conditions will have improved as a result. But on the whole I think they did well - with higher population density, though younger demographic than U.K.

@Namenic

OP - there are lots of countries in the ‘East’. Do you mean China? Be specific, because different countries have had different strategies. Singapore has done well with a fraction of the deaths of U.K. and opening up once the vaccines and treatments were available.

Their schooling system I think was less affected than U.K. and I think their health system too. They did not do enough for their migrant workers and I hope conditions will have improved as a result. But on the whole I think they did well - with higher population density, though younger demographic than U.K.

TBF, that same point was made on a number of occasions to posters who used the 'look East' phrase. I do agree it's not the most helpful, given that there are a number of societies in East Asia and we're seeing some quite diverse responses and situations.

You can argue that the ability to do a swift strong lockdown and shutting borders is something that we should have plans for now - including negotiations with EU, ROI and NI about how it would work and how long it would last in the 1st instance (before talks about retaining/reopening).

This ability would be v useful if we had a pandemic with higher mortality and transmissibility than corona. The controversial part would be what strength of restrictions we should have for a given disease severity.

@Namenic

OP - there are lots of countries in the ‘East’. Do you mean China? Be specific, because different countries have had different strategies. Singapore has done well with a fraction of the deaths of U.K. and opening up once the vaccines and treatments were available.

Their schooling system I think was less affected than U.K. and I think their health system too. They did not do enough for their migrant workers and I hope conditions will have improved as a result. But on the whole I think they did well - with higher population density, though younger demographic than U.K.

You'd have to ask those who suggest we 'look east' which country they were referring to.

Why dont you tell us which countries you had in mind when you started this thread?

[quote TypicaIMe]@carefullycourageous as I understand it (and this is very basic layman's terms!), the vaccines are holding up. It's true that antibodies will wane over time but T cell immunity is holding up pretty well. My consultant explained this to me and also said 'they're the important boys'. The ones which protect from severe illness.

Also the more times we catch it, the more we reinforce that protection. I've had it five times now and had four jabs so hopefully I'm bulletproof!

I'm just saying what my consultant said - apologies if the terminology is messy![/quote]
I understood that waning protection was partly the cause of the increased death rates, alongside the removal of all mitigations.

I think the U.K. has done rather well actually. Followed the science, responded to changes and protected the majority of the economy. Which is important, regardless of what the zero-Coviders say.