Are you getting your primary age child vaccinated?

[TunnelOfGoats]

Just had a text from our GP asking us to book a vaccine for our DS 8yo. I've had 3 vaccines and was happy to do so, but I'm hesitating about booking one for my DS. Trying to find out other people's opinions and whether you will be getting your DC vaccinated? Thanks

How did you get the invite if your kids are not in the at risk group? My Gp is not offering vaccines, the NHS portal does not allow me to book, I would like to get DS to be vaccinated but I can’t find a way to do it…(he’s had covid almost 12 weeks ago)

All children aged 5-11 are now eligible for vaccination. You can book at your local children’s hospital, pharmacy or vaccine hub.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/jcvi-update-on-advice-for-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-aged-5-to-11/jcvi-statement-on-vaccination-of-children-aged-5-to-11-years-old

No. Both children 10 and 5 have had covid more than once. Very mild for both of them.
As far as I understand a jab now would ‘protect’ them for 3 months, then start to wane, I don’t like the idea of needing to jab my kids every 3 months. Has the effect of repeated injections been studied in children?

No. It’s such a madness to inject my healthy young children who had zero symptoms with covid with something that can potentially harm them. No, I’m not scared of long term covid complications. Every viral infection could have complications. I’m more concerned about the potential side effects of this jab.

“First, do no harm”.
The golden rule of medicine.
So I ask myself, why my healthy children should have a jab that has a list of potential side effects, some of them serious, to lessen the symptoms of the infection, when they had no symptoms with said natural infection at all. Can someone please explain the rationale. To add insult to the injury, so to speak, some studies show that the expected efficacy is actually much lower for this age group and only lasts for a few months only?
amp.theguardian.com/society/2022/feb/28/pfizer-vaccine-less-effective-children-ages-five-to-11-data

Nope. They're not having it.
Reason - and I don't NEED to justify it, it was made by me and DH jointly, but since this is MN...

I'm still experiencing side effects from the original two jabs months and months on (and I was done fairly early) in terms of menstrual problems and allergic reactions appearing or existing ones going absolutely batshit - I've never had problems like it (and it's been logged under the yellow card scheme) and so I refused the booster, and was prepared to apply for exemption if needed for the vaccine pass, and I'm not prepared to risk the same for the kids - if my menstrual cycles go up the spout (well it's more constant period) then I've had my day, but the kids haven't!

Risk/benefit in our judgement doesn't justify it.

@CoffeeWithCheese Sorry to hear you’ve had some side effects. Stress and/or immune response can disrupt the hypothalamic-pituitary-ovarian axis which explains how covid/covid vaccine (and living through a pandemic) can mess with periods. For the majority, any changes return to baseline quickly, some who have long covid have more long lasting issues, but there is no research to suggest that fertility is impacted.
www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2211
www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/long-covid-and-periods-the-unspoken-impact-on-female-well-being

@bluebeach I think they’ve done repeated vaccinations in Israel with no adverse effects, will try and find a paper. In any event the kids are going to be exposed to multiple covid infections anyway, with the vaccine the dose is controlled. I don’t like the idea of vaccination every 3 months either, I think long term they will try and combine it with flu annually, maybe biannually, once the virus has attenuated and the threat diminishes.

@Yesiknowyes That study saying Pfizer is less efficacious in kids than adolescents and adults hasn’t been peer reviewed yet, sample sizes are not comparable (half the number of younger kids) and the dose given isn’t the same so I don’t really think you could compare the two cohorts really. Although the efficacy declines more rapidly in 5-11, the paper notes that it is effective against severe disease and they do recommend vaccination. The actual paper is available here:-www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.02.25.22271454v1

And the rationale for vaccination in this age group in U.K. here:-www.gov.uk/government/publications/jcvi-update-on-advice-for-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-aged-5-to-11/jcvi-statement-on-vaccination-of-children-aged-5-to-11-years-old

Again, totally respect everyone’s opinion either way. Please remember in the media the journalists are writing stories that sell with attention grabbing headlines, some do have a scientific background and will present comprehensive info, but many do not.

No chance of me ever getting my children vaccinated for this. There is not enough scientific research done on the long term effects of it.

There have been some incredibly worrying side effects in adults. Many fobbed off and told 'there there now luv, you'll be ok. Sometimes a vaccine and stress can stop your cycle. It's totally normal' An utter farce. Medical gaslighting. There have been many thousands of women who have had their periods go missing for months on end, heavy painful bleeding, post menopausal bleeding. Lord knows what it's doing to young girls (and all children).

My children have all had covid twice. The youngest too young to understand what it was. No symptoms for any of them. One of mine has bad anxiety and is worried about dying. The isolation and closure of schools and masks really did a number on their mental health. I had to make the decision to not even tell them they were positive because they showed no symptoms at all. The first time they tested positive was during last half term. We were all positive in the house again last week. All fine. No symptoms for any of us. I've continued to send them to school. Why unnecessarily miss school and fall behind? I cannot wait until 1 April and for all this to be over with

@Robinni thanks for the response. So in the Israeli study, are there no adverse affects to under 11’s getting multiple vaccines? Or is it no ‘additional’ adverse affects than getting just one or two vaccinations?

Someone mentioned above that the risks of covid were greater than the risks of the vaccine. On those grounds, maybe it’s better to vaccinate, but, if your child has had covid and had it without terrible symptoms, could you conclude that covid is an even smaller risk to them as you know your child is not in the % of children that gets it badly, plus they have a level of natural immunity.
I guess I’m trying to weigh up the risk/benefit for my individual children, so the risks of covid for a child with natural immunity verses the risks of getting the jab. Presumably that would be different than the risks of covid for a child with no natural immunity?

@Bluebeach

Hi, I checked and sorry I got my wires crossed about Israel - they are ploughing on ahead with a fourth booster for the over 60s and healthcare workers. Vaccination for kids is in line with elsewhere.
www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(22)00010-8/fulltext

The vaccine roll out for 5-11 only really got going circa last November. Here's a list of where most countries stand.
www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/countries-vaccinating-children-against-covid-19-2021-06-29/

As yet it would be too early to go boosting kids so there is no data for what you're concerned about. The safety profile for Pfizer in kids was assessed via this study. www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2116298

And again the U.K. rationale for going forward with this age group is here.
www.gov.uk/government/publications/jcvi-update-on-advice-for-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-aged-5-to-11/jcvi-statement-on-vaccination-of-children-aged-5-to-11-years-old

The vaccine development process usually takes about 10-15 years. www.historyofvaccines.org/index.php/content/articles/vaccine-development-testing-and-regulation
However, for the Covid vaccines, much of the technology involved has been around long in excess of this (30yrs), it's just a matter of redefining the recipe as such. And also, huge volumes of research were already going on into vaccine development for SARS and MERS which are closely related. The amount of MONEY has also been key - I've seen a lot of people have their research funding wiped because the money has been redirected towards Covid - the financial clout, man power and effort has been huge. By comparison to what other vaccines have had to contend with, it's Samson vs Goliath. Also, with Covid the initial variants encountered don't kill the vast majority of adults and the infection has been raging around like a wild fire so that gives scientists tonnes of opportunity to have field trails etc. - it's ethical, and you have a bonanza of infections to see what the effect is. With things like Ebola, the outbreaks are sporadic in nature with comparatively lesser numbers of people involved, and the fatality rate averages 50% (25-90%), so often it isn't ethical or plausible to run the trails for quick vaccine development.
Here's a great article explaining why the process was so accelerated for Covid vaccines.
www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03626-1

With regard to repeated vaccination, again it is too early to draw definitive conclusions. When you look at things like flu where there are annual vaccinations, you can see waning effectiveness over time and things like immune exhaustion being discussed, whilst other studies have shown response to be boosted by prior vaccine history. So results are inconclusive, though are generally in agreement that it's better to go ahead with repeated flu vaccination than have none at all (we're still waiting on the expected flu pandemic!!). The science is currently unclear around the 4th covid jab for the general population here (many other articles available) www.dw.com/en/covid-do-multiple-boosters-exhaust-our-immune-response/a-60447735
In the short term while the pandemic is ongoing and threat unclear (next few years), frequent boosters could be a plausible strategy but going forward I think they will probably limit the vaccines to vulnerable and elderly as with flu unless the pathology induced changes radically.

"If your child has had covid and had it without terrible symptoms, could you conclude that covid is an even smaller risk to them as you know your child is not in the % of children that gets it badly, plus they have a level of natural immunity"

I don't think you can conclude anything about covid from the external symptoms seen. Now that the longitudinal studies have begun and they're doing tests/scans of adults and kids etc. it's showing that even those who were asymptomatic can have long term issues, scarring of the lungs evident and so forth. Whereas some who were hospitalised come out fine with no long term problems.
The British Society for Immunology prepared a pretty nifty infographic which explains the difference between naturally acquired protection vs. vaccination.
www.immunology.org/coronavirus/connect-coronavirus-public-engagement-resources/covid-immunity-infection-vaccine

Reinfection risk is higher following a natural infection
www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-natural-immunity-what-you-need-to-know

Finally, and this is important, be very cautious - what your kids may have experienced previously with covid cannot be extrapolated to future potential infections, for two reasons.

1. The severity of infection depends on complicated interactions between the host, virus and environment none of which are constant in time. For instance developing the infection in the first place depends upon the dose, the number of exposures involved and individual ability to cope; you need to reach a threshold to develop the infection. You can use an analogy of alcohol to explain this; a few beers (low dose: e.g. breathing in covid particles at supermarket) every Wednesday is probably grand, a bottle of absinthe (high dose: e.g being a close contact of multiple people shedding covid at high titre) on a daily basis probably not great! A tonne of other factors are involved as well - some constant, like your childs sex, others not so such as if they have another infection at the time.

This paper explains the various factors leading to different clinical outcomes. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7934673/

1. The virus is constantly evolving, what we see today is not necessarily what will occur tomorrow. General consensus is that there will be Covid waves over the next 2-3 years (as the virus is nowhere near controlled worldwide and it is getting lots of opportunity to evolve). There is about a 20% chance that an emerging variant will be worse than anything seen thus far.

Sage papers discussing potential scenarios and what to do about it, the second more positive than the first.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1007566/S1335_Long_term_evolution_of_SARS-CoV-2.pdf
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1054323/S1513_Viral_Evolution_Scenarios.pdf

Various papers on the evolution going forward.
www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03619-8
www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-will-the-coronavirus-evolve/

Review of the epidemiological and clinical features of coronavirus infections in kids
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7716978/

Various papers generally discussing the pros and cons of vaccination in children
www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/laninf/PIIS1473-3099%2821%2900339-X.pdf
www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14760584.2021.1951245
www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01898-9
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/pai.13401
adc.bmj.com/content/107/3/e1
www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02423-8

I know making this decision is difficult for a lot of people, and the communication of science in the media has been pretty rubbish which hasn't helped. It was easy for me as our whole family are vulnerable.

I hope the above helps you understand it all a bit better and helps with your decision. Have a quick look at the links that interest you, focus on the abstract of any scientific paper, discussion and conclusion for more info if you need it. x

@Covidnamechange2022

No chance of me ever getting my children vaccinated for this. There is not enough scientific research done on the long term effects of it.

There have been some incredibly worrying side effects in adults. Many fobbed off and told 'there there now luv, you'll be ok. Sometimes a vaccine and stress can stop your cycle. It's totally normal' An utter farce. Medical gaslighting. There have been many thousands of women who have had their periods go missing for months on end, heavy painful bleeding, post menopausal bleeding. Lord knows what it's doing to young girls (and all children).

My children have all had covid twice. The youngest too young to understand what it was. No symptoms for any of them. One of mine has bad anxiety and is worried about dying. The isolation and closure of schools and masks really did a number on their mental health. I had to make the decision to not even tell them they were positive because they showed no symptoms at all. The first time they tested positive was during last half term. We were all positive in the house again last week. All fine. No symptoms for any of us. I've continued to send them to school. Why unnecessarily miss school and fall behind? I cannot wait until 1 April and for all this to be over with

Where are your sources for this "thousands of woman", what proportion impacted of those vaccinated? Comparison between no. of women who normally have changes to their menstrual cycle for numerous reasons?

Agree that the lockdowns were appalling for children.

I find your attitude of going against the guidance, sending your kids in to school though positive quite jarring being a vulnerable person. And also having lost an Aunt and best friend (30s) due to it. Another friend (40s) on a ventilator 10wks and another (20s) with long covid and can't work now. But go you for not inconveniencing yourself!

Good luck with it being over by 1st April!

No. Both dp and I are triple vax. DS (6) had covid in Jan with less symptoms than either of us. I just can't fathom the reasoning for it.

@Robinni Wow, thanks so much for all the links. I’ve started reading through but will take more time over the next few days. Deff some food for thought.
It’s very interesting to note that even with asymptomatic cases, damage post infection can still have occurred.
Ultimately I do think that each family has to weigh things up taking into account their own circumstances and vulnerabilities. There is a difference in vaccinating the vulnerable and the elderly and vaccinating healthy children and so it does require discussion and research. Thanks again for your time.

2 vaccinated primary aged children here; no significant side effects

Sorry should have said they are double- jabbed, which is standard where we are. No pre existing health conditions.

@bluebeach no prob at all, I read most of it when we were deciding whether to vaccinate our child and saved the links.

You’re right every family has to make their own decision and important to think it over carefully.

Well, I would like to take the decision to vaccinate the young one, but still can’t book it…the guidance is saying it should be offered but in practice it doesn’t seem to be on offer. At least not in my NHS trust area. I know it’s considered low priority, but…

Does anyone know how long have to wait between testing positive and vaccinating 5-11s? Kids were booked in for a fortnight's time, but have just tested positive. Obviously can't go away now which is shit too.

We had a phone call from the surgery on Friday to book a jab for DD9. DH and I pondered and decided not to. We’re both fully vaccinated but DD is not vulnerable and has had CV and was absolutely fine.

I’m not anti vax by any means, but I wouldn’t be doing at this point.

@Ottolin3 "but don’t claim there to be favourable data towards the vaccine, because that is incorrect."

Wrong.

"There is no evidence of an association between COVID-19 vaccination and an increased
risk of death in young people. By contrast, SARS-CoV-2 infection was associated with substantially
higher risk of cardiac related death and all-cause death." - Prof Amitava Banerjee, mobile.twitter.com/amibanerjee1/status/1506933345002958850

"There is currently no evidence of a change in the number of cardiac-related deaths or death occurring from any cause after a coronavirus (COVID-19) vaccination in young people aged 12 to 29 years in England.

• Office of National Statistics, www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/causesofdeath/articles/covid19vaccinationandmortalityinyoungpeopleduringthecoronaviruspandemic/2022-03-22

"A quarter of children with COVID-19 symptoms develop "long COVID," according to data pooled from 21 studies previously carried out in Europe, Asia, Australia and South America." - (pending peer review", www.euronews.com/next/2022/03/15/long-covid-has-been-found-in-1-in-4-symptomatic-children-a-new-study-finds-what-are-the-sy

"Although young children with Covid-19 generally experience mild illness, the omicron coronavirus variant has led to more children being hospitalized with Covid-19 in recent months at a rate five times higher than with the Delta variant." - www.forbes.com/sites/victoriaforster/2022/03/16/covid-19-can-cause-severe-croup-in-young-children-says-new-study/

No. They’ve had it twice and not been ill.

At this point, I don’t think so. I don’t see the benefit in vaccinating healthy children. Both of mine have had Covid, one of them twice and both had very mild symptoms each time. The vaccines aren't very good at stopping infections spreading either, so again, I don’t see the point.

Yes, 8 year old daughter has had the vaccine. She developed PIMS and long covid after a mild dose of covid last September. She was perfectly healthy before Covid.

Nope. Both of them had it. Bit of a sore throat that paracetamol solved.