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Do you think that at times what we have referred to as ‘the science’ has got it wrong?

386 replies

MarshaBradyo · 20/02/2022 17:43

I’m thinking about the many times people said well it’s going to go badly wrong and the science backs this up

But a few times this hasn’t happened

July opening
Omicron and not doing ‘circuit breaker’ and not ending in lockdown
Not getting close to best case for omicron

And so on - maybe other examples

What do you think - was it unnecessarily pessimistic?

OP posts:
Againstmachine · 21/02/2022 21:00

*Lots of modeling has been wrong. I mean that should have been clear from the get-go, since different models produced different results.

A lot of public health is about behaviour, and that also means that "the science" can be very unclear.*

A modeller should be building a estimate of that into their models though.

MangyInseam · 23/02/2022 02:57

@Againstmachine

*Lots of modeling has been wrong. I mean that should have been clear from the get-go, since different models produced different results.

A lot of public health is about behaviour, and that also means that "the science" can be very unclear.*

A modeller should be building a estimate of that into their models though.

I wasn't suggesting they couldn't. They were two separate statements.
Emergency73 · 23/02/2022 07:09

@MarshaBradyo

But nobody expects science to be 100 perfect - there were no crystal balls, an unprecedented situation - and now we have the luxury of hindsight.

I think a lot of ‘science’ is look before you leap/caution. I certainly wouldn’t want to be the one making announcements as it’s a damned if I do say this/damned if I don’t type situation.

I don’t think anyone’s listened to just one scientist. I also think it’s not wise to base decision making on emerging science. It’s about consensus of scientific thought, robust, peer researched evidence and weighing up majority scientific opinion. Therefore Neil Ferguson may not have been right on occasions but putting my trust in NHS guidelines more as the ‘consensus’ of thought would be more advisable.

I think the science was always about saving lives/health/preserving hospitals.

The other side of the argument is saving the economy which is also ‘right’. And I think we’re now swinging in that direction as the emergency is abated for now. If it becomes bad again - I think we’ll be swinging back
to science.

CrunchyCarrot · 23/02/2022 07:26

@Againstmachine

The problem is people are always saying 'the science', well it doesn't exist it isn't one body who says things it's made up of various people who have different opinions.

And Fergussen is frankly rubbish, and been wrong so much. And obviously wasn't frightened as he was shagging his mistress and got kicked out of sage but was back shortly after.

Yes, this. There's no 'the science'. Scientists are like everyone else and will interpret data differently, and come to different conclusions.

As for Fergussen... Hmm

MarshaBradyo · 23/02/2022 08:17

There seems to be consensus that it’s not a useful phrase which is good as I’d read ‘I’m listening to the science’ enough times to question it.

I felt more comfortable with Pollard and Whitty who seem to get more of the nuance re costs to society.

OP posts:
VikingOnTheFridge · 23/02/2022 08:25

Yes, exactly.

There are and have long been people who think 'the science' means there's a determinative consensus, a clear way to go. That's not a helpful term because it's always been about what we choose to prioritise.

Clytemnestra4 · 23/02/2022 08:47

@VikingOnTheFridge I agree there is no such thing as ‘the science’. Just lots of individual and research teams trying to deal with a fast-moving situation.

But I think for a lot of people during the pandemic - either because they were scared and so wanted complete certainty, or because they simply don’t understand how science works - were determined to see the science in black and white terms. So basically seeing consensus and certainty where it didn’t actually exist.

frozendaisy · 23/02/2022 09:01

What's the alternative to making an as educated deduction based on knowledge and data?

Spinning a wheel with options on?

At least 'scientists' update their predictions as more evidence presents itself and admits the wrongs. Which politicians and conspiracy theorists don't.

MarshaBradyo · 23/02/2022 09:05

@frozendaisy

What's the alternative to making an as educated deduction based on knowledge and data?

Spinning a wheel with options on?

At least 'scientists' update their predictions as more evidence presents itself and admits the wrongs. Which politicians and conspiracy theorists don't.

You make decisions recognising and communicating the various costs

We absolutely have had changed throughout. I’m fact much moaning re ‘u turns’ so no it hasn’t been static at all.

Nearly every government has responded in an adaptive way. Conspiracy theorists I’m not that interested in.

OP posts:
borntobequiet · 23/02/2022 09:08

A modeller should be building a estimate of that into their models though

The more a assumptions and estimations a mathematical modeller attempts to build into their model the less accurate it is likely to be.

frozendaisy · 23/02/2022 09:09

There was no "one fits all" solution.

If you think of all the balls that needed juggling it's mindbogglingly complex.

MarshaBradyo · 23/02/2022 09:10

@frozendaisy

There was no "one fits all" solution.

If you think of all the balls that needed juggling it's mindbogglingly complex.

Absolutely

That I agree with.

Complex, fast moving and not entirely predictable

OP posts:
VikingOnTheFridge · 23/02/2022 09:10

[quote Clytemnestra4]@VikingOnTheFridge I agree there is no such thing as ‘the science’. Just lots of individual and research teams trying to deal with a fast-moving situation.

But I think for a lot of people during the pandemic - either because they were scared and so wanted complete certainty, or because they simply don’t understand how science works - were determined to see the science in black and white terms. So basically seeing consensus and certainty where it didn’t actually exist.[/quote]
Yes, absolutely.

CryingAtTheDiscotheque · 23/02/2022 09:14

@VikingOnTheFridge

Yes, exactly.

There are and have long been people who think 'the science' means there's a determinative consensus, a clear way to go. That's not a helpful term because it's always been about what we choose to prioritise.

Agree with this. "The science" predicted a range of possible outcomes, depending on variables. Luckily, outcomes of more recent decisions have been towards the less serious end of range possible consequences. Cue: "The science was wrong" Hmm

"Following the science" was a phrase that Johnson came up with to sell his decisions to the masses/blame "the science" if necessary. How the early decisions re care homes involved any "science" eludes me.

kistanbul · 23/02/2022 09:16

Modelling is not prediction.

If you’re looking at a model and thinking.”That prediction is wrong”, you’ve fundamentally misunderstood the science.

noblegiraffe · 23/02/2022 09:17

Anyone who thinks 'following the science' isn't, or wasn't, a useful phrase has forgotten how fucking awful it was at the start of the pandemic.

Back in March when all the news was of people dying horribly in packed ICUs in places not far away like China but close, like Italy, people were terrified. We had for a leader an unflushable turd (sadly still do) whose most recent achievement was unlawfully proroguing parliament and lying to the Queen. When everyone was looking for clear, informed leadership, he came on TV and said 'the elderly should avoid cruises, enjoy Cheltenham everyone!'. Like, WTF?

Schools were half empty as parents took their kids out, some schools were already closing due to lack of staff, it was a mess.

So then we were 'following the science'. Boris turned things over to Patrick Vallance and Chris Whitty who we'd never heard of before but who were clever and answered questions and were not politicians. There were graphs. Explanations for things. The grown-ups were in charge.

That's what 'following the science' meant then. It meant data analysis, not vote chasing, bumbling and blather.

Following the science was immensely reassuring, because it meant we weren't following Boris Johnson.

MarshaBradyo · 23/02/2022 09:18

There have been times when we have expected worse and it hasn’t occurred so yes I’d say we would have got it wrong had different actions been taken based on those figures.

However this is more that people understand the variables in hindsight but are far less likely to agree those same variables and uncertainties are there when we approach a change.

Hence resistance at each stage and cries to ‘listen to the scoence’

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 23/02/2022 09:21

Direct examples are

July opening
omicron
Circuit breaker

All times where I’m glad those cries didn’t dominate action

OP posts:
CryingAtTheDiscotheque · 23/02/2022 09:25

Yes @kistanbul very well put

Emergency73 · 23/02/2022 09:36

Well it’s consensus science v’s rapid change, which happens in many scenarios. Not just Covid, also climate change etc. What do you reject consensus science in favour of? What? What has a better probability than consensus science?

MarshaBradyo · 23/02/2022 09:38

A balance of risks and costs which actually we have been doing all the way through.

Even Chris Whitty is clear on the role and relationship between science and government decisions, tg

He’s good to listen to as he’s good on social costs and behaviours too.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 23/02/2022 09:47

You can only predict things on the basis of what you know and what the likelihoods are.

You can also only draw up 'best advice' within the set parameters you have.

One of the key points with covid, has always been precisely what we don't know. One of the golden rules when considering science is to think about the known unknowns and also to think about the unknown unknowns.

Covid has highlighted the importance of the unknown unknowns and how they can throw everything.

In terms of the scientist parameters, they don't have to take into account things like social unrest. We know that behavioural scientists have been involved in this and have been able to get an idea of where compliance with restrictions have started to breakdown. This will be something politicians will be particularly aware of and will have to make decisions about - the science may say one thing but whether the options on the table as recommended are viable politically are a different but valid consideration to make.

If you put in a measure which doesn't have full widespread public consent you don't limit transmission as much as you intend (so its net benefit is minimal but the net cost might be significant). You need to bring the public along with you. This is a valid consideration for politicians whether we admit it or not.

From the word go, it was made clear that the public would only tolerate restrictions to a certain degree and whilst they felt it benefitted them.

What we have seen in the UK is the public largely being on board with restrictions and unlike pretty much anywhere else in the West we havent seen much in the way of protest. Thats significant and should not be ignored. The government haven't been a million miles off what the public want throughout. Yes they could have done better, but equally they have not had a situation where there has been outright revolt either.

That does suggest the government were more in tune with public feeling than many would like to admit.

Where there has been perhaps the biggest failings hasn't been with the medical science its ironically, given the above, been with the behavioral science.

As it goes the behavioural scientists having nothing historic to compare with, estimated levels of compliance would be much lower than they actually were doing the early stages of the pandemic. We need to keep this strongly in mind.

This was a good thing initially. But it also perhaps suggests the fear factor was greater than was anticipated, which also had ramifications indirectly. We know that harm indirectly was greater as a result - this is stuff like patients being unable to access an early diagnosis because doctors made it more difficult to get access to appointments than anyone had anticipated. The impact on children was also vastly under estimated - again because we had no previous comparibles to use as a baseline.

This would always had the potential to put any other scientific estimates way off.

There were other things too, that politicians had to consider than scientists don't.

Budget is the hard one right now. The cost of free lfts is the equivalent of putting that extra penny on NI. I don't think many people would be happy paying it, thinking it would go on the wider health and social care budget only to find its just gone on lfts. The alternative would be to raise more taxes, borrow more or make cuts to other things already badly effected by the pandemic. This is a consideration that scientists dont have to think about.

Again uptake of lfts has perhaps been much higher than anticipated in recent months.

Covid scientists do not have to consider educational issues in the same way as immediate health issues covid and none covid alike. Its not their priority. But it is for politicians. Also the long term public health implications over stuff like social mobility and poverty come into play here too. They are more for politicians than for scientists.

Scientists also do not have to consider major shifts in the cost of living that government do. These have had a significant impact. Supply chains were a consideration as they were likely to be hit by covid, but this was also compounded in the uk by unresolved Brexit issues, the Evergreen issue and fuel security and supply. These have all massively changed public priorities and concerns. As well as pressure on politicians.

The reality is that I don't think there is enough understanding of the impact of unknowns. Which are both predictable and unpredictable. We got a stroke of bad luck with Alpha in the uk, but one of good luck with Omicron. Predictions being wildly off, have been at points where there has been a major change in the nature of the beast which has fallen at the edges of probabilities based on knowns. Scientists have to make predications based on probabilities. If things had remained within knowns, i think the predictions probably would have been a lot more accurate.

As it stands we don't currently know whether we will get a much more severe variant this winter. Its very much on the table as a possibility. How much you invest in it being a likely probability both economically and psychologically is merely a matter for debate due to unknowns.

As it goes the government took a gamble on omicron - probably based on information from behavioural scientists who felt that fear of losing Christmas was sufficient to self limit behaviour, and by the time Christmas was over the data coming in was beginning to support the government's position. The timing was just favourable to government in political terms thats all.

Thats blown open public mistrust in scientists. Thats a worry for the future for a variety of reasons. Its likely to affect compliance if we do get a bad variant and its likely to undermine trust in science in other areas.

All because the public don't properly understand the concept of unknowns and the interaction between science and politics and the limitations of remit.

No one has ultimately been 'wrong'. Better decisions could and indeed perhaps should have been made at times. And underlying data was flawed at times - an admission of weakness that was made very early on and not denied. We had no historical precedent. Thats very unusual.

What we did get right with the science is vaccines. They have been largely MORE successful than anyone dared hope - with the possible exception of sinovac.

What has happened in recent months is the public have compared omicron with the first wave and concluded that restrictions weren't merited in the uk given its demographics. Thats a conclusion for the ignorant. No data supports this. Places with lower compliance / more key workers / less vaccine uptake have higher death rates when adjusted for age. Age being the more significant risk factor. Places with more deprivation have been most at risk but arguably now are most at risk from financial issues and educational issues going forward.

We need to recognise those.

We needed restrictions until we had vaccines. That isn't really a debate if you look at uk data. The Denmark argument doesn't hold up under scrutiny due to our demographics being different in numerous ways (economics, density, genetics, lifestyle, underlying health).

And none of this is helpful to argue over and understand unless we are willing to fully take onboard the concept of the unknown unknowns though.

You can only make predictions based on historical precidence and known clinical data. Both of which we've lacked. You can't accuse people of 'failing' when they haven't got the most basic of tools - things that are known. Its just a risk that is unavoidable and always possible.

MangyInseam · 23/02/2022 16:23

I think you are largely right, RedToothBrush.

I often think that people in the UK are far too hard on your government. Overall, compared to other places, they have been careful and conservative, compared to a lot of places. The US has been a mess. Here in Canada we have a mess, the level of authoritarianism is very concerning, and not just with the seizing bank accounts and such. Where I live they are not really even willing to talk about stopping masking in a concrete way.

But I think it's true that for a lot of people, they have not been able to understand the intersection between "the science" and other considerations, that weighing up those things is necessary, often doesn't give clear answers and people can legitimately differ on what factors they think are more important. People's values around things like death vs quality of life are very deep seated and many find it difficult to query their own thinking.

The idea that we could just "follow the science" is not unique to BJ, it's been heard from political figures in many countries, mainly as a way to avoid policy criticism. But it's not a real idea, because everything depends on the goal. Which certain people assume means save as many people as possible, and they tend to think that's a universal view, but of course it isn't.

But I do think there has been some very weird black and white thinking that has become very fraught. The mask debate to me is the epitome of that - it's always been very unclear whether it's effective, or very effective, at a population level, and what the downsides might be. And yet it's become kind of a litmus test for covid orthodoxy for many people, both for and against. Instead of admitting that there are big questions around it, unknowns as you say, that discussion was treated as something only for crack-pots.

All that being said, the loss of public trust in science, which was already underway, has IMO been further eroded by all of this.

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2022 16:52

@MangyInseam

I think you are largely right, RedToothBrush.

I often think that people in the UK are far too hard on your government. Overall, compared to other places, they have been careful and conservative, compared to a lot of places. The US has been a mess. Here in Canada we have a mess, the level of authoritarianism is very concerning, and not just with the seizing bank accounts and such. Where I live they are not really even willing to talk about stopping masking in a concrete way.

But I think it's true that for a lot of people, they have not been able to understand the intersection between "the science" and other considerations, that weighing up those things is necessary, often doesn't give clear answers and people can legitimately differ on what factors they think are more important. People's values around things like death vs quality of life are very deep seated and many find it difficult to query their own thinking.

The idea that we could just "follow the science" is not unique to BJ, it's been heard from political figures in many countries, mainly as a way to avoid policy criticism. But it's not a real idea, because everything depends on the goal. Which certain people assume means save as many people as possible, and they tend to think that's a universal view, but of course it isn't.

But I do think there has been some very weird black and white thinking that has become very fraught. The mask debate to me is the epitome of that - it's always been very unclear whether it's effective, or very effective, at a population level, and what the downsides might be. And yet it's become kind of a litmus test for covid orthodoxy for many people, both for and against. Instead of admitting that there are big questions around it, unknowns as you say, that discussion was treated as something only for crack-pots.

All that being said, the loss of public trust in science, which was already underway, has IMO been further eroded by all of this.

Bang on.

One of the key points through out has been that what works for one country will not work in another. Partly for scientific reasons, partly for pure party politics and partly because of cultural concerns. The UK could never have taken on a Chinese level of restrictions. Neither could it have gone with the US lack of restrictions. Neither has it been subject to the problems of anti vax sentiment which has existed elsewhere. Yes we have anti vaxxers but not in many places with a real platform - and definitely not within politics. This is significant.

As we come out of restrictions it becomes more apparent that personal concerns and priorities come out. Just about everyone is 'selfish' in this respect. Its very true to verbalise it as

People's values around things like death vs quality of life are very deep seated and many find it difficult to query their own thinking

The accusations about not caring simply aren't true. Most people do care very much. Thats kind of the problem. They just see it through different lens.

I also think its worth pointing out that the likes of Whitty have to be conservative in their predictions and advice. If they don't they aren't doing their job properly. Their job is one of contingency planning. By nature in contingency planning you have to identify the worst case scenario and give a liklihood of this and then pass it to decision makers to assess in practical terms where you draw the line.

This is often a gamble - government will never know until its panned out. If they are too heavy handed it costs more in terms of finances and lives and pisses people off, if they aren't heavy handed enough they piss people of and it costs more in terms of lives and finances.

Its really like trying to thread a needle whilst everyone is stood watching and jeering. And you are never going to have the alternative scenario to measure it against to judge its real success or failure.

The uk very much is on a cross roads between poverty related issues (cost of living issues) and covid issues. And our cost of living issues are more acute than almost anywhere else. If you don't grasp the relevance of this in the context of how the most deprived areas have faired throughout the last 2 years you aren't getting the argument at all.

There is no 'right answer' or unified science and I think thats problematic for many. We know that much of British politics in the last 5 years has been a battle between fact v opinion. Yet good management always sits between the two because if you don't bring the public along with you and convince them of the merits of the facts, the facts are somewhat irrelevant.

The idea about this being the age of lost nuance is very applicable.

LyricalBlowToTheJaw · 23/02/2022 16:56

The impact on children was also vastly under estimated - again because we had no previous comparibles to use as a baseline.

Up to a point RTB. Some problems were underestimated because we just didn't want to think too hard about them in case we didn't care for the answers. It's stating the bleeding obvious that kids aren't going to do well when the ones who have abusive and/or inadequate parents are expected to stay at home with them without the usual protections of school and routine. There didn't need to be direct experience of lockdown for that to be clear.

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