AIBU to think that we need to stop “hiding” from covid

[Belle82]

I know I will get some very strong opinions about this but please hear me out.

I am fully vaccinated, and for those who are not that is their own choice, with the exception of the immunocompromised.

The recent omicron strain is not as dangerous as the first it is simply spreading faster, causing there to be more admissions to hospital.
However 90% of people in hospital with covid have not been vaccinated.
Of course a % of this would be those too young to have the vaccine and some are immunocompromised.

I am more than happy to keep the restrictions in place to protect the children and the immunocompromised.
However any RSV infection or Flu is much more dangerous to those two groups than Omicron is, but there is no mention of those from the government.

However I don’t think it’s right that there are blanket restrictions to protect the (by choice) non vaccinated. You make that decision knowing the risks so why should we all be restricted to protect those people.

My family currently have covid, and our symptoms only lasted for 3 days, very mild. Although, we maybe lucky, everyone I speak to has either had it or knows someone who has and they have all said the same regarding symptoms.

My question is, if we are not going to quarantine and test for the more dangerous viruses, like the flu, then why are we asked to quarantine and take tests everyday for omicron that is (for most people) a 3-5 day cold?

However, requring them in certain situations like hospitals, could be an example of one policy reinstated during a Winter surge.

Hospitals and other scenarios where people have less agency are probably the only situations where actual restrictions are still going to fly. What is done now to manage covid is going to have to be achievable without widespread compliance from the population.

Yes @Belle82

@VikingOnTheFridge

However, requring them in certain situations like hospitals, could be an example of one policy reinstated during a Winter surge.

Hospitals and other scenarios where people have less agency are probably the only situations where actual restrictions are still going to fly. What is done now to manage covid is going to have to be achievable without widespread compliance from the population.

You can extend it to all places where vulnerable people "have to attend", i.e. virtually all health related premises (GP surgeries, clinics, dentists, opticians, pharmacies, etc). Then maybe to other "personal service" providers. And of course, care homes, etc. Then possibly to necessary retail establishments such as banks or post offices? Also, public transport to transport the vulnerable to the places they have no choice but to travel to, i.e. buses/taxis for hospital visits etc.

It's all well and good saying "the vulnerable" need to take their own precautions, but some things simply can't be avoided. If you need an x-ray or a scan, then they're hardly going to bring the machine to you, likewise for eye tests, dental treatment, etc.

It's such a shame that we had blanket lockdowns and restrictions that have cost hundreds of billions when we could have made provisions to "ring fence" the vulnerable a hell of a lot cheaper by having much greater defined restrictions in the "necessary" areas, backed up with employment of lots of extra support staff to help the vulnerable and maybe grants etc to finance service providers to "go mobile" to visit their customers rather than expect their customers to visit them. Likewise with vulnerable staff, where employers should have been given grants/funding to help the vulnerable staff work from home or be redeployed to work in less risky environments.

Health related premises yes, I think so. There isn't a chance in hell of restrictions being observed in retail though, nor of the sector bearing the costs of trying to enforce them. That's not happening even now.

Your last paragraph is certainly food for thought.

@user1497207191 also workplaces.. I'm lucky, my boss is letting me WFH still!
Immunocompromised and waiting for my 4th vaccine
Yes I'm vulnerable to other things but I've never been told to wear a mask, avoid people, sent a food box, or had a priority PCR and offered anti virals sent for flu before
I've actually had flu and was ok (I say ok, I was in bed for 3 weeks) because my main issue is I can't fight bacterial infections. I was worse with a chest infection because it went to pneumonia

Effectively I've not really left shielding. I did go out to the supermarket etc when cases were lower. I see two people, both had covid recently and would test before seeing me which is how their cases were picked up

It's ok for people to say well the vulnerable were vulnerable to flu, but I'm following my consultants advice. My condition is one in a million and I don't fancy testing how it is with covid. Although some days I think just get it over with
It's really, really lonely. I just stay at home alone now

@Belle82
However 90% of people in hospital with covid have not been vaccinated
Is this correct?

40% of Omicron hospitalisations are unvaccinated adults www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10350161/Covid-19-UK-40-Omicron-hospitalisations-unvaccinated-adults-officials-finally-reveal.html?ito=native_share_article-top

Apologies for DM link but not sure where 90% comes from.

But do we honestly believe that we can hide forever from a virus which is so wide spread already.

I always wonder what people actually mean when they use the words "hide" and "forever" in sentences like this.

There seems to be more scaremongering done by the 'live with it' side than there is by the 'accept that we are in a pandemic and that involves some adjustments' side.

I do agree that life has to go on but at the same time it can still be really nasty. I have Covid now and am triple vaccinated. My God, I'm suffering. It's far worse than I expected given my vaccinated status and relative youth (40s). I can imagine how this would affect someone older and more vulnerable, even if they have been vaccinated. I find a lot of people (like you OP) say "Well I had it and it was mild, just a sniffle". I've heard this so many times - but don't you realise, your experience is not everybody's experience!? I think it's precisely because people are still getting very ill and having long Covid etc that we still need to be very careful. I see the government are letting it rip now (and I partly understand why) but it means we as individuals need to be even more careful. I can't imagine how severe the other variants were as my experience with Omicron is that its anything but mild. I also can't imagine how ill I'd have been without the vaccinations. Please everyone - just because you and your families had mild cases doesn't mean everyone will.

I had covid last week - Omicron. I have no underlying health issues and am generally fit and healthy. I was unable to leave my bed for 3 days and both of my teens missed a week of school which isn't ideal in year 11, then halfway through the week DH got it too. I've had several friends recently who were similar - it felt like a bad case of proper flu.

So YABU. It didn't hospitalise us but it did have a big impact and I don't want to get it again. I'm happy to keep sensible restrictions like masks and SD which are very low cost and I wish they were mandatory. They would be if we had a government who cared for the people and not just for their backbenchers vote.

[...] restrictions like masks and SD [...] and I wish they were mandatory.

Masks are still mandatory, yet you still caught covid.

It's not until Thursday (I think) that the mandatory masking rules lapse in England.

I realise that adherence has been slipping, and part of that can be set at the door of government messaging. But looking at case numbers at and in the run up to Christmas, when adherence would have still been relatively high, you were quite 'lucky' to escape it as long as you did.

You have to look further east to find an approach that is 'caring' enough that it would realistically have prevented you becoming infected.

@Zonder

I had covid last week - Omicron. I have no underlying health issues and am generally fit and healthy. I was unable to leave my bed for 3 days and both of my teens missed a week of school which isn't ideal in year 11, then halfway through the week DH got it too. I've had several friends recently who were similar - it felt like a bad case of proper flu.

So YABU. It didn't hospitalise us but it did have a big impact and I don't want to get it again. I'm happy to keep sensible restrictions like masks and SD which are very low cost and I wish they were mandatory. They would be if we had a government who cared for the people and not just for their backbenchers vote.

When you say SD what do you mean?

In venues, theatres etc or something else

Masks stopped being mandatory in schools. I work in education. Masks stop being mandatory this week in England in public places. Lots of people already stopped wearing masks since Christmas around here because the government are pretending it's all over.

And I would like to maintain a degree of SD as in not too many people in small places, keep ventilation etc.

What sort of mandatory SD provisions would you have in mind zonder and where do you think the cost of these ought to fall?

@VikingOnTheFridge

What sort of mandatory SD provisions would you have in mind zonder and where do you think the cost of these ought to fall?

Continuation of masks is an easy one. Relatively low cost. And keeping a distance such as the 2m mark in queues for tills in shops likewise.

Ah, I wondered if you meant limits on socialising too.

Do you want these things to actually be enforced, or would simply having mask regulations and non-legal policies about 2 metre gaps that people observe if they like be enough? If the latter, I agree we could do that easily enough, but the former not so much.

But isn’t the problem that people don’t want to?

Or, rather, many people don’t. Some would be willing, I grant you.

But I don’t really get it… if you’d like to see those measures, then why not carry them out yourself?

Mask wearing is super easy, as you say. Distancing requires a bit of judicious trip timing and imposing on others’ “empty” space. But both seem quite feasible.

You won’t be able to go to night clubs, nor bars at busy times. But quiet times are exactly that, even in the hip joints where I live.

Where’s the catch?

Mask wearing is super easy, as you say.

Super easy for some people.

Super easy for some people.

Yeah, but it doesn’t matter now. (Well, not from Thursday.) It’s not mandatory anymore. Thankfully.

Unless you are perversely wanting to wear something that causes you difficulty, of course. Bit odd, but cool. :-)

If you want to minimise your chances of catching it, wear a decent mask. Be careful to fit it well. And be careful that your hugely limited exposure to pathogens doesn’t weight as a net negative on your immune system. (So get plenty of sunlight, and don’t wear it 24x6.) But otherwise rock on.

@VikingOnTheFridge
@user1497207191

There was a comment earlier about “ring fence the vulnerable” which made me recoil. I then looked at another thread which had a similar theme, or was dismissing the vulnerable and there was a link to this:

People with pre-existing conditions are real people. Their lives matter. They are your parents, your grandparents, your friends, your children. Very possibly you.
If you are seriously making the argument that only 17,371 people have really died from COVID then you are saying that the ~140,000 people who died with pre-existing conditions were expendible and didn't matter.
I hope it's obvious that that is an utterly repulsive and morally indefensible position.

Don't even think about trying to make that argument to me.

It’s just hideous that people are so dismissive of the vulnerable. What kind of society are you looking for - a world that is full only if the ‘hearty henchmen” that were mentioned on another thread?

It is only on these Mumsnet threads that I hear these sort of appalling suggestions or perhaps if I tried to read the manifesto of an extreme political party.

We work together as a society, those vulnerable to Covid are NOT just expendable. They are loved, have loved ones, are part of families.

We appear to have forgotten about the gift of being alive - to have conscious thought, to experience life, to think, feel, to care, to love. It IS a repulsive idea to suggest that some are more ‘worthy’ of this gift than others - and to keep pushing for a course of events that could have resulted in many millions more dying, and losing that gift worldwide.

@treeflowercat unfortunately we are on yet another week of home learning now. I think the school are keen to shut the class until half term. DH and I work full time and our work isn't tolerating "but we have to homeschool again" because it's ridiculous so DD gets yet another disruption to her education for something that none of the children have exhibited symptoms.

@Belle82

However 90% of people in hospital with covid have not been vaccinated

THIS IS CATEGORICALLY UNTRUE

In the week to 29 December 2021, just 25% of people admitted to hospital from an A&E department were unvaccinated. That’s from a total 74% had not had three doses of vaccine—including 25% who were unvaccinated, 6% who had received one dose, and 43% who had received two doses.

23% of people admitted to hospital had received a booster dose, and the remainder were unknown or had had their first dose less than three weeks ago.

Source: UKHSA data as quoted in www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o5

So where does the “90%” come from?

It’s a bastardisation of ICU data. In December 2021, 39% of people in intensive care with COVID-19 had received 1, 2 or 3 vaccines. Only 61% were unvaccinated. 90% of people in ICU had not received three vaccines.

That does not mean 90% of people in hospital were unvaccinated.

Source: www.icnarc.org/DataServices/Attachments/Download/5d46be46-e36f-ec11-913a-00505601089b Figure 27.

Furthermore, the UKHSA says A simple comparison of COVID-19 case rates in those who are vaccinated and unvaccinated should not be used to assess how effective a vaccine is in preventing serious health outcomes. This is because these figures are susceptible to a number of differences between the groups, other than the vaccine itself, and these biases mean that you cannot use the rates to determine how well the vaccines work.

Further information on WHY is here:

ukhsa.blog.gov.uk/2021/11/02/transparency-and-data-ukhsas-vaccines-report/

So unless people actually start to truthfully base their actions and opinions on accurate data, you’ll forgive me if I think their opinions are worth nothing.

@SonicBroom exactly. I also challenged this point.
Vaccines are brilliant at reducing risk ftom COVID and they especially keep people out of ICU. 61% in ICU are unvaccinated but sadly they can't perform miracles.
Vaccines have clearly stopped many hospital admissions and stopped the NHS getting more overwhelmed.
Many people who have done all they can to protect themselves still wind up in hospital though.

[quote Adatwistscientist]@treeflowercat unfortunately we are on yet another week of home learning now. I think the school are keen to shut the class until half term. DH and I work full time and our work isn't tolerating "but we have to homeschool again" because it's ridiculous so DD gets yet another disruption to her education for something that none of the children have exhibited symptoms.[/quote]
Agreed, it's disproportionate and ultimately futile... It's not going to stop children getting Covid, it might just string things out a bit and mean that a class has to endure multiple isolations of a dozen or so pupils at a time rather let it pass through and only those I'll enough to be off school miss out.