Attitude to masks needs to change...

[treeflowercat]

We adapted before back in the late Spring 2020, when it was decided that masks were beneficial after all, having initially been advised against it. The message at the time and since has been that masks protect others more than they protect you.

But now, the emphasis is on mask quality.... and it matters far less whether others around you have face covering but the quality of your own. For instance, it appears that you're far more protected if you have a FFP2 mask and others are maskless, than if you and everyone else has a cloth (or even surgical) face covering as per the link below:

www.goodhousekeeping.com/health/a38697308/best-face-masks-omicron-covid-variant/

(NB the absolute times need shortening for omicron but relatively the differences remain)

The notion that a room where everyone had face coverings on is "safe" doesn't really appear to hold, as evidenced by the rises in countries where mask mandates are strict (look at Spain!).

Equally, the idea that a room where only you have a mask on (if high quality) is "unsafe", at least compared to the fully masked alternative outlined above, doesn't hold either.

It seems that the advice now needs to change, as it did before, and that your protection is primarily based on the quality of your own mask.

A recognition of this would hopefully diffuse some of the conflicts and anxieties surrounding mask use...

I'm not writing this as someone who is anti-mask, and I started wearing one before the become mandatory, but unless we make this shift, they'll be a lot of vulnerable people who feel disproportionately unsafe, in the belief that their protection still lies more with the cloth face covering worn by people they interact with, than the quality of the mask they wear themselves.

@Alexandra2001

From next week no need to wear. If someone wants to wear then that's up to them

Amazing really, infections are way higher than when masks introduced (Dec 10th 57k) but apparently its all gone away... the magic that the fear of losing your job can do - if only we'd known in March 2020, we could have avoided this pandemic.

They are but it wasn’t known then that omicron variant was in fact much milder.

@Gingerlovesbiscuits
Me and my primary aged kids all wear N95/FPP2 masks in class. (I’m a teacher). None of us have caught covid yet despite being in rooms full of infected people. My son is one of only three people in his class kit to have caught it. My daughter has also had ten people in her class catch it but she did not. I am now having to help cover other teachers classes at my own school on top of my own because there are so many staff off at my school. I’m glad that masks have helped keep us safe and in school but I bloody wish others would wear decent quality masks too because if everyone did then the virus wouldn’t spread as much.

Well I didn’t catch it despite being in a household in close maskless contact (and sleeping with positive DH)with 5 positive cases. Two of whom we’d never had known had it apart from the positive tests which we took when one of my DC was notified he’d been in contact with a positive case outside of our household. This was last winter with the stronger variant,

It may not have been all due to the masks. You may just have been lucky.

I don’t think it’s good at all for primary school aged children to be wearing masks for prolonged periods in school. There are some reports that suggest to can be harmful. Is that your choice or is it mandatory where you are?

@Geamhradh

Not all MNers are in the UK, obviously, and where I am (Italy) it's now really ffp2 or nothing. Cloth ones were never accepted but we did all wear surgical. Since the beginning of Jan in schools it's ffp2s only and I must admit I feel better in one.

How's the infection rate going where you are where these masks are mandatory?

About the same as England was a couple of weeks ago as we are behind the curve on Omicron at the moment.

Though before Omicron hit we had one case in our school of 988 kids and 90 staff (Sept-Dec) which was pretty good.

@ClariceQuiff

I always see people fiddling with their masks, wearing them over their mouth but not their nose, wearing them as a chin-sling. I've also seen some very manky-looking masks.

I've read so much for and against the effectiveness of masks to protect oneself or others that I find it impossible (not being a scientist) to reach a conclusion, but it seems obvious that masks worn improperly are not going to serve any purpose and dirty masks probably do more harm than good.

As a scientist, how did you manage to reach the conclusion that masks are doing more harm than good?

As that seems a bit... unscientific?

or rather the sentiment that it is "obvious" that "dirty masks do more harm than good", and what does this actually mean?

I don't think masks do anything, personally. Good personal hygiene and regular cleaning of surfaces are more effective.

Of course masks (proper ones worn properly) are effective. Cleaning of surfaces is just theatre. It's been known for a long time that the virus is not spread via fomites.

That does seem to be a good point OP if we are moving back to a situation where a lot of people are no longer wearing masks . I normally wear a disposable surgical mask as I find these easiest to breathe in . I'm guessing that the FFP2 masks may not feel so comfortable or easy to breathe in?

I think that you are probably right, OP. It looks like now the issue is mostly focused on whether people choose high quality masks to protect themselves. What others do is less relevant.

Even aside from changes in rules, I don't think most people would wear the types of masks required to make a difference - they are too limiting, uncomfortable, and also there are real access issues.

So it makes a lot of sense in that scenario to make masks an individuals choice.

@Postdatedpandemic

An FFP2 worn without a face fit test will offer protection similar to the levels from a surgical face mask.

That’s not true. A surgical mask is very gappy around the sides and has less layers. An incorrectly fitted ffp2 will offer somewhere halfway and full between surgical and ffp2. Depends how incorrectly fitted it is.

FFP2 or 3 are still better and anyone needing the most correctly fitted ones should opt for 3m Aura 9332 (ffp2) or 9330 (ffp3). They’re pricey but can be worn more than once and good for things like hospital appointments, the riskiest exposures.

@SantaClawsServiette

I think that you are probably right, OP. It looks like now the issue is mostly focused on whether people choose high quality masks to protect themselves. What others do is less relevant.

Even aside from changes in rules, I don't think most people would wear the types of masks required to make a difference - they are too limiting, uncomfortable, and also there are real access issues.

So it makes a lot of sense in that scenario to make masks an individuals choice.

I actually find the better masks more comfortable and far easier to breathe in. I have asthma. It’s like they have more room and don’t stick to the face when humid. They’re so much better.

@shinynewapple22

That does seem to be a good point OP if we are moving back to a situation where a lot of people are no longer wearing masks . I normally wear a disposable surgical mask as I find these easiest to breathe in . I'm guessing that the FFP2 masks may not feel so comfortable or easy to breathe in?

I find ffp2 easier to breathe in. They stand off the face and have more room to breathe.

Thanks OP. Many of us will still be wearing masks.

Don’t we take mitigations against things to make them more safe though? Can’t you think of any examples? No one is saying we have to make the world a sterile environment 🤣 Just that there’s a few things we can do to lower risks of various things.

Well, yes, but heavy duty masks are not very comfortable, they smell inside, they make it impossible to eat and drink while wearing one and they block communication.

I get why someone with dire health risks might consider this for the moment, but I'm not going to don one of these to avoid what would basically be a cold for me.

@CrabbyAggie

We’re going to have to stop wearing masks at some point and there are much more effective treatments for Covid now than there was in the beginning as well as the vaccines. I started wearing one in March 2020 and remember posting a thread on here in the June about food servers in a sandwich shop not wearing them and was absolutely roasted for it. I find it boggling that so many people want to carry on wearing them.

You find it boggling that some might want to keep wearing masks in a pandemic? You really can't think of any reasons why this might be?

but I'm not going to don one of these to avoid what would basically be a cold for me

You know this do you? How?

Even if you do think “every one is going to get Covid eventually”, there is point in doing what you can to delay it until the treatment available is better.

And with what is coming out about the prevalence. severity and duration of long Covid, even for people who were asymptomatic or mildly ill at the time, it does make sense to try to avoid getting it.

I don't "know" it will be a cold, true, but I know that it most likely will, and I know that the chances of me being severely ill are pretty remote. There's stuff like data, statistics, probability and risk assessment that most of us do in our day to day lives.

At this point, I'm more concerned about the mental and physical impact of isolation, reduced face to face time with others, impaired friendships and a bunch of other things.

Other people can do as they like.

@5128gap

I think this is a really useful post OP and I completely agree that messaging should change to reflect your points People need to hear and believe that they can protect themselves (rather than wanting others to do it, and feeling angry and resentful when they don't) and be given clear guidance on how to go about it.

Trouble is, government messaging has to be three words, just three words, otherwise people zone out. Hence: hands - face -space.

The reality is, providing a meaningful amount of (quality) information about masks to dispel myth and inaccuracy just won't happen. Those of us 'in the know', are in the know because we're bothered to research the reality and ignore the minimalist garbage that has been peddled about masks through the pandemic.

You only have to see groups of young 30 something blokes strutting around the supermarket to know that the vast majority of people couldn't give a stuff about others' health, ye gods they don't even give a stuff about their own health!

Click and collect, and avoiding unnecessary exposure to crowded places if we possibly can, has been our modus operandi for a long time.

@5128gap

I think this is a really useful post OP and I completely agree that messaging should change to reflect your points People need to hear and believe that they can protect themselves (rather than wanting others to do it, and feeling angry and resentful when they don't) and be given clear guidance on how to go about it.

Agree.

However the posts of "masks are gone next week anyway" with a gleeful tone show some people really do have an inability to endgame with the actual words and science used.

I know for my mum (terminal cancer and having weekly chemo) knowing she can protect herself more when others aren't wearing masks will be reassuring and extremely helpful information.

You only have to see groups of young 30 something blokes strutting around the supermarket-- to know that the vast majority of people couldn't give a stuff about others' health, ye gods they don't even give a stuff about their own health!

^^ none of them wearing any face covering even when they were mandatory - right, so you blokes are all exempt are you??

We've become a selfish society in this country. All people care about is their own convenience. I bet even if cloth mask-wearing was scientifically proven to stop the virus spreading, large swathes of the population would still refuse to wear them, rather than do anything for the common good. If it doesn't benefit them personally they aren't interested. It's actually really depressing how self-centred our thinking has become, hence why widespread mask wearing has been dead in the water for a long time.

@daisychain01

We've become a selfish society in this country. All people care about is their own convenience. I bet even if cloth mask-wearing was scientifically proven to stop the virus spreading, large swathes of the population would still refuse to wear them, rather than do anything for the common good. If it doesn't benefit them personally they aren't interested. It's actually really depressing how self-centred our thinking has become, hence why widespread mask wearing has been dead in the water for a long time.

I don't think that is true at all. The fact that so many people do follow the rules, despite many of the rules not making sense, shows that most people do care about doing the right thing.

I hate wearing masks and don't believe that they make a significant difference to the spread of the virus in real world situations. However, I have worn them when mandated as I know that many people think they do help and get uncomfortable around unmasked people. I am not going to continue to wear them now that the mandate has been lifted though. If there was proof they worked then I would wear them.

Most people have altered their behaviour in an effort to stop spreading the virus.

We’ve worn masks in indoor places throughout, we didn’t wait for them to be compulsory 4 months later or stop wearing them when they were not compulsory. Where I live the majority also continued to wear masks.

We usually have a surgical mask under a cloth mask as that’s the best way I’ve found that keeps it in place snugly on my tiny face and stops glasses steaming. As long as catching COVID means there is a need to isolate I will continue to reduce risk of catching it as far as possible as I don’t get paid if I don’t work. If I have to isolate it also stops other family members working who then won’t get paid either as I look after my nephews when I’m not at work. It’s not about fear of a mild virus it’s about isolating leading to financial consequences.

This Governnment strongly believe in PERSONAL FREEEDOM and PROFITS before everything else.

Human life, suffering and despair are irrelevant to them.

Many of the cabinet (Sunak and Javid) especially treat the principles of Ayn Rand as a religion.

Removing the mask mandate makes sense if other people aren't a consideration.