Bonkers hamster killers

[JustUseTheDoorSanta]

Seems extreme: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-60038551.

@Kokeshi123

I don't have an ideological problem with killing animals that may pass diseases to humans, depending on the circumstances, if there is no alternative.

I do have a "what the fuck is HK doing?" problem with Hong Kong's actions, because we are now into 2022 and yet the island's authorities seem to be using the same playbook they were using in spring 2020--permasealed borders and playing whack-a-mole with the virus.

I dunno. The UK is a bit of a shitshow too in many ways. We've infected so many young people. I guess we'll know in twenty or thirty years who was right.

Of course the UK is a shitshow.

I don't think there is actually a "good" way to deal with this virus.

Just a variety of shitty ways. Pick your poison.

Technically, "zero covid with closed borders till vaccine and good drug treatments developed, THEN roll out vaccine fast and and deep, THEN have a big conversation about living with virus and open up borders progressively while tolerating a big exit wave" is probably the least bad mix, if you can pull it off

(but it requires very good public health comms, because you've somehow got to persuade people to cooperate with all the zero covid measures for a year or so, and then pivot towards "actually, living with the virus is OK." Not easy. There is no really simple solution to this virus, IMO. To an extent, it's a question of waiting it out.)

There is a middle way though between zero Covid come what May, locking up people and killing their hamsters with little justification, and ignoring all the evidence coming out of Asia about the pandemic and how to deal with it, going for herd immunity and being forced into a drastic lockdown, ignoring your public health resources and handing the testing and tracing and PPE to incompetent cronies (test and trace was something Asian countries focused on and were much more effective at, except Taiwan for a short period which it soon learnt from), learning none of the lessons and continuing on repeat…. I am actually sat here in agony with long Covid ear, which has persisted nearly two years now so may be feeling a hamster’s life might be worth it if I could have been protected from this

A consistent public health strategy based on existing practise worldwide, using the expertise in our public health resources (ranked joint first in the world before the pandemic) , the emerging evidence and learning the lessons would have been a start. Obviously the strategy had to evolve as vaccines came into the Arsenal, but it really should not be a process guided by ideology whether the CCP’s hard man brand or right wing libertarianism.

Geronimo the Alpaca anyone?
One pet. Massive debate.

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

Geronimo the Alpaca anyone? One pet. Massive debate.

It’s dead easy to play the emotional card in any controversy, many herds of Alpaccas, Llamas, Deer as well as Cattle have been culled, not to mention thousands of Badgers. Sorry no exceptions allowed

It’s dead easy to play the emotional card in any controversy

Very different cases, this is the established government policy based on overcoming a disease, bovine tuberculosis, which was regularly transmitting and killing humans in the twentieth century and has been brought under control. I remember the difficulties farmers faced in the 1970s as a result of those measures. It is on the rise again in animals and nearly 30000 animals were culled in the outbreak in 2020/21. The transmission to humans is controlled not only by culling but also sterilisation of our milk and compulsory testing of dairy herds. But then we had one anthropomorphised llama given a name and personality - a bit grumpy, and we have people marching through the streets of London

Of course supporters of Hammy in Hong Kong no longer have that option even though this is clearly a political issue rather than a scientifically established threat.

HK has completely lost the plot over Covid. They will take the most draconian measures possible within every decision atm. There’s a lot of anger about this and many other of the reactions to Covid.

I lived there for 10 years and was there during SARS which they handled well imo. I left a bit before the pandemic started, but the pandemic would have forced me out if I hadn’t already left.

Schools have either been closed or on half days when open for 2 years. Minimal provision for children with SEN (my DC’s SEN school here reopened before mainstream and stayed open during the 2nd lockdown). Everyone with Covid gets taken to hospital isolation wards. All contacts get taken to government quarantine. Parents are hugely anxious about being separated from their children (not uncommon). I have heard of cases of classes of primary age children being bundled straight on to busses and taken to quarantine facilities after a classmate has tested positive (or perhaps even just been a close contact of a positive- can’t remember that one). It’s all about zero virus which appears to be unachieveable, with no recognition of the impact on the population.

Mangosteen The issue is that the response to SARS was driven by science and this response is driven by politics, it’s an insane reaction to getting the Chinese border open, especially if the restrictions, can get the gweilos to take flight, not Covid . There is no scientific basis to a three week isolation period for instance, I am pretty sure nowhere else in the world has done that ?

During SARS we were kept informed at every stage what they were discovering about the virus, where and how it was transmitted (including the delightful details of the transmission by faecal matter to every flat shower room in the Amoy Gardens tower blocks which led to the scaffolding going up on many other tower blocks including our own ) At no point did I, and presumably you, feel that what was being asked of us, including school closures and the return to school restrictions, was unreasonable.

Most people I know had no problem with the restrictions at first. Hong Kong public health officials had listened to Taiwan who spotted Covid on planes from Wuhan in mid December and both they and the residents were well in advance of other countries including China in accepting / bringing in the measures they developed during SARS. We all knew that wasn’t the big one and were prepared for that. If anything people were frustrated with Carrie Lam that she didn’t close the border sooner. For a long time there was a benefit in the zero Covid policy, the economy stayed more open than here and the school my DCs attended certainly went back full time (in masks) when our U.K. schools were still closed, and were certainly far better at online learning than most U.K. schools when they were closed.

The restrictions though have become ever more unhinged and unfair, just as all the other aspects of Carrie Lam’s regime have in response to Beijing.

In a way culling hamsters is a bit of a metaphor for how pathetic and insane she has been in that endeavour…..

And all the Hong Kong residents I know who have moved or returned here are also shocked at the insanity of people making such a fuss about wearing masks and implementing other basic public health measures in the U.K.? Genuinely puzzled as to why you wouldn’t?

It’s dead easy to play the emotional card in any controversy, many herds of Alpaccas, Llamas, Deer as well as Cattle have been culled, not to mention thousands of Badgers.
Sorry no exceptions allowed

Yes and that dog nutter in Afghanistan but no one cares when it's cows and sheep with foot and mouth disease, because they're not thsoe cuddly wuddly fur babies with big cutie wutie eyes

It's some rodents being put to sleep ffs and people are bawling like its King Herod's massacre of the innocents

@Flaxmeadow - stating something is "bonkers" isn't bawling. It is getting into whataboutery territory; we don't need to discuss torture by the Taliban if we want to call out the genocide and other abuses committed against Uighurs. It's possible to think both actions are wrong.

OP and that relates to the culling of hamsters how?

I have to say that as long as I have lived and studied China and Hong Kong “Bonkers” has always stood for a lazy shorthand for looking at things with a western perspective and not actually taking the trouble to understand that the politics and culture are different. I include myself in that as a Hong Kong resident before I I actually studied it. What seems bonkers to westerners may not be to those in China and the diaspora and actually what makes perfect sense to us seems bonkers to people with a different perspective.

the school my DCs attended certainly went back full time (in masks) when our U.K. schools were still closed, and were certainly far better at online learning than most U.K. schools when they were closed.

Hmm- not sure that's right- HK schools were closed Mid Jan 2020 to end of May 2020 (4.5 months), then 4-6 weeks of half days to holidays, closed mid Aug-late Sep, then closed again beginning of Dec 2020 to April 2021 (4.5 months) and now primary closed again. Primary students in local schools have not done a full day since Jan 2020. UK school closures have been nowhere near as prolonged. Even if your DC were in an international school in HK (which got a little more leeway), DC have had far less in person than in UK. DC's school has got pretty good at home provision but it's still not the same as being in school, plus of course they are still hugely restricted in school in terms of socialising, drama and music, sport and group work.

I will look up the dates tomorrow but how does that compare to schools being a major vector in Feb / March 2020 as families came back from skiiing at half term and families were told they could send their coughing children into school because it wasn’t Covid. 1.7m cases in London alone.

Or the Excess deaths especially in the affluent villages and towns around city centre areas that subsequently saw high rates of infection. Hong Kong was spared all that

Look, Emily, I'm not denying that HK's zero covid policy resulted in a LOT less deaths and mayhem than the UK's policy during 2020.

My point is that it's now 2022, not 2020, and there's the need for a change of direction.

HK did a great job of containing covid, but we now have vaccines, good drugs and a much more transmissible variant that HK will probably not keep out for long.

And HK's vaccination program and uptake have been an embarrassment.

I am a crazy hamster lady and I am so glad I don't live in Hong Kong, I would never be able to hand over my hamster to be 'culled' *shudders

Truthfully, I have known for a long time that we can spread covid to hamsters. I have always feared infecting my hamster cos I am not sure how I would even treat a hamster with covid (am I even allowed to bring him to the vet? They tell you not to come if you have covid to avoid infecting the staff). And what if it kills him. I got pinged once or twice by the NHS app (exposed to someone with the virus) earlier in the pandemic and I genuinely tried to isolate myself, feeding him vegetables using chopsticks, washing hands before changing water bottle, refraining from touching him until I tested negative on lateral flows. But it's an airborne disease after all. I also understand in HK that you are taken to a special facility if you have covid and that would not be possible for hamsters!

My sympathy to HK residents who believed they were going to remain different and separate from the rest of China, it was never going to last long. Those that could establish a bolt hole overseas did, many in Canada others in Aus, NZ and elsewhere, the government has total control and if you don’t agree you are sent to a re-education camp.

That’s the way it is, it’s not even Communism, just rule by a Plutocracy with a leader for life, and we all lap up the cheap goods they produce.

www.ft.com/content/b6394fff-5169-410f-be19-3437b8e0da31

Oh my--people leaving HK are now getting together to charter private jets as it becomes the only way to get their dogs and cats out with them (limited space on limited flights).

Kokeshi Not arguing with you at all in terms of how ridiculous the politically motivated restrictions have become. Interestingly Taiwan seem currently frozen by the breakout of clusters of Omichron from the airport and quarantine hotels into the community. They have not acted as hard and fast to control cases as previously and people I know there are speculating that they are watching and considering a focus on vaccination rates and letting it run in the community as Australia and New Zealand have / are doing.

I don’t think many in the U.K. realise that until Hong Kong stopped flights from the U.K. and made life very difficult for the airlines in terms of quarantine requirements for crew, there were 8 flights a day arriving here, with many of those passengers returning expats or coming here on the BNO passport resettlement scheme to escape the political situation. I know many in Hong Kong who are concerned that their political beliefs and actions make them vulnerable to arrest and are therefore unable to stay in their home. Now there seems to be just one Cathay flight so not at all surprised people are looking at chartering and wouldn’t be at all surprised if the clampdown on flights isn’t also motivated by making it more difficult for local people to leave.

CrazyKatie What is your evidence of Hong Kong people being sent to re-education camps? I know many people living there and certainly if you were involved in the protest movements or democracy parties you face arrest. However most like Denise Ho are out on bail. Silenced yes but certainly not the level of suppression seen by the Uyghurs in Xinjiang where it is quite specifically targeted at cleansing their ethnic minority.

Gotta say that if I were Taiwan, I'd want to abandon zero COVID if only in the hope that it might keep the PLA away. "Be warned --- try to invade, and we'll breathe on you " ;)

Secondary schools closing in HK now.