If you have friends who are conspiracy theorists/hate masks/vaccines...

[Campfirewood]

I really recommend the Royal Institution Christmas lectures from the BBC... I've really enjoyed (my geek-ery coming out here) learning about why the coronavirus is so successful, why masks work, how we test (why is a PCR more sensitive than LFT) and then how vaccines work. There are over 3 hours of info/tests/experiments but it's really interesting. Including the professor who helped create the AZ Vaccine, Katie Ewer, (bit of a girl crush on her).

As someone who is generally nervous about vaccines (but I've had them all, whilst scared!) it really helped. They are very intelligent people, who cumulatively, have studied their fields for hundreds of years telling me why it's just science and, makes sense has really helped.

Anyway, they're here...

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b00pmbqq/royal-institution-christmas-lectures

They were great weren't they! I really enjoyed them!

Fantastic. Thanks!

Thank you - I usually watch the Christmas lectures but missed these!

I thoroughly enjoyed them too, as did my dd.

Sadly though I think some people are so far down the rabbit hole they can't/won't be convinced.

If you wish to be taken seriously when talking about vaccines, either pro or anti, you should of course read and listen to the information being given out by Mr Van Tam in these lectures. However to come to a balanced view, you should also read and listen to evidence that does not support Mr Van Tam and the Goverment response.

I don't think calling people conspiracy theorists etc just because they have looked at the evidence and came to different conclusions.

came to different conclusions

Mmmmm..... done their own research I s'pose?

@Cocoabutterformula

came to different conclusions

Mmmmm..... done their own research I s'pose?

Exactly

I don't think calling people conspiracy theorists etc just because they have looked at the evidence and came to different conclusions.

By different conclusions, you mean anti-science, anti-facts - because it really does take a particular combo of stupidity and arrogance to imagine you are brighter and more discerning and somehow magically more scientifically gifted than the greatest minds in the field of virology, etc etc, that have co-operated worldwide to understand this pandemic.

For every scientist in this country and around the world, there is another saying the exact opposite
They are Equally qualified in their field and most are highly regarded
Most have peer reviewed papers published

The consensus is, because they have a different opinion on all of this, that they should be shut up, cancelled and removed from practice.

People should be allowed to listen to whom they want, without being called an anti vax conspiracy theorist.
Because those other scientists may just be right

Science is not about opinions.

Scientists do disagree. On balance I have had the vaccine and wear masks etc ... but I do know and read scientists that disagree with this approach. I am more persuaded by those that encourage vaccine etc .. doesn't mean I am right. Feels right to me and my limited understanding of what the scientists say.

I saw a epidemiologist on TV yesterday saying that kids wearing masks in school would not do any harm but these was no evidence it made any difference. Later that day I read another epidemiologist say there was evidence and referenced about 4 or 5 pieces of research. Both epidemiologists in the UK. Intuitively I side with mask wearing. I don't have time or skill to read and critique the research links she shared.

I thoroughly recommend listening to the course Virology Live on YT if you want to learn more about viruses, how they replicate, invade cells, evolution etc. Absolutely fascinating stuff taught by a world-renowned virologist Vincent Racaniello. Also the associated This Week in Virology podcasts. It's not an easy subject but since doing that I've a far greater appreciation of virology and can spot more misinformation.

The conspiracy theorists I know will immediately ignore anything by the BBC or “MSM”. Unless the BBC were to say “masks don’t work and vaccines don’t work”. Which of course they won’t because they do work.

For every scientist in this country and around the world, there is another saying the exact opposite
They are

Literally one for one? No there isn’t.

More depressing nonsense about 'for every scientist there's one saying the exact opposite' etc. It's all insidious, drip drip misinformation.

Scientists disagree. Of course they do - that's the nature of science! But the idea that there's a camp saying this and then a camp saying the opposite is just not true. There are some outliers - often cranks though of course not always.

Just so tired of you all.

For every scientist in this country and around the world, there is another saying the exact opposite

Nope, the scientific community is absolutely not split 50/50 on COVID. The vast majority are not COVID deniers and vaccine refusers.

How do you spot the crank scientists though. As I said I intuitively align with the mainstream scientists but when I read and hear the outliers I can see why they are persuasive. They sound knowledgeable and have impressive qualifications etc....

@jewel1968 I can’t claim to be a scientist or even that I have a working knowledge of the science involved most of the time but personally I’m very suspect of people who are keen to point out what others are doing wrong rather than concentrating their efforts into proving what they’re saying is right. It’s also a warning sign when they’re dismissive of criticism from their peers rather than reiterating their stance and answering questions raised - even with a ‘I don’t know’ (especially with a ‘I don’t know’ actually. Who knows everything?)

On a more general level, I’m wary of people who very much believe that vaccines/medication/policy are dangerous/corrupt and aren’t horrified by the notion. Anyone gloating that they know what’s ‘really’ going on and isn’t disturbed by the consequences of what they believe to be true either doesn’t understand what they’re saying, is detached from reality or a sociopath.

For every scientist in this country and around the world, there is another an unqualified crank on YouTube or Facebook saying the exact opposite

Fixed that for you

The contrary scientists I have read or listened to do offer chapter and verse (in lots of scientific language I don't fully understand) why the other scientists are wrong or overzealous. As I said I align with the mainstream scientists but I don't know why I do cos both lots of scientists are a bit complex in the language they use.

At the end of the day is ordinary folk are navigating a complex landscape.

It’s quite hard to unpick at times isn’t it @jewel1968? Especially when we’re asked to understand that the scientific process includes them picking apart each other’s research and data. I suppose that’s where trust in the majority comes from.

in lots of scientific language I don't fully understand

Depending on who their audience is this can be another red flag. Sometimes they don’t want you to understand (have a look at how L. Ron Hubbard wrote Dianetics and founded Scientology. He was fully signed up to ‘bullshit baffles brains).

Generally I find knowledgeable people want you to understand what they’re trying to communicate.

@Cornettoninja yes I think that's a good point. There are some scientists that are really good at communicating. Or at least I think I understand them. I guess some people are very good communicators.

If I go back to my earlier point where one epidemiologist says there is NO evidence to support wearing of masks in schools and another epidemiologist saying there is evidence.

@jewel1968

The contrary scientists I have read or listened to do offer chapter and verse (in lots of scientific language I don't fully understand) why the other scientists are wrong or overzealous. As I said I align with the mainstream scientists but I don't know why I do cos both lots of scientists are a bit complex in the language they use.

At the end of the day is ordinary folk are navigating a complex landscape.

There is actually only a very small number of outliers who speak out against vaccines, it's just that they make a lot of noise and they want to be heard whereas the vast majority of epidemiologists and virologists are very very pro-vaccines but are just quietly getting on with their jobs with no wish to be in the media, much less become a 'personality'.

DD2 has a first-class Masters in this field (quite literally, the title of her course was control of infectious diseases) and none of her peers, tutors, supervisors etc are anything but pro-vaccine.

@jewel1968 I think masks are a tricky one and depend on perceptions of what the goal is. Pulling numbers out of my arse here; but I perceive masks that are 25% effective at preventing infections are a good thing, someone else may perceive that 25% effective isn’t worth the limitations and problems caused by masks. Also you can find research that correctly states the virus is much smaller than any common mask could hope to reliably stop but that doesn’t take into consideration that the virus can and does travel on droplets which a common mask can stop.

Tbh the mask debate is probably one of the more valid debates there is in this pandemic but it’s massively over saturated and clouded by political ideology at this point.