Dying with covid or of covid...

[brass4]

Hi! Just wondering if people knew whether the statistics the government release daily, for deaths in hospital, are for people who died OF Covid or WITH Covid? If they were dying and were already in hospital but also had Covid, would they be included in the death toll? Thanks

My elderly mother recently died. She was very near the end of her life when she contracted covid, and it is named as one of the causes on her death certificate as she died within 28 day of testing positive.

It must be similar to why pneumonia and flu are such common causes of death in older people. They're already frail and their systems just can't fight something else of.

It's very different to a younger, healthier person dying soon after contracting covid, with no prior life-limiting health conditions.

@bobbie42 I'm glad you added that informative post even if the malicious stirrers on this thread won't even acknowledge that you've posted it.

Reporting. Happy Christmas.

Yup. There will be some financial gain to be had for each death reported

For who exactly? Just because YOU don’t want this to be a shit pandemic killing millions of people it doesn’t make it true.

Yup. There will be some financial gain to be had for each death reported

Yep my COVID denying relative said the same. The only place it could be true is USA but it is nonsense elsewhere.

basically throwing anything and everything in to inflate numbers so they can justify restrictions

Why would they do this? Restrictions cost the Govt.money. with furlough etc.

Clearly, it's COVID death toll minimization bingo time again!

For a full house you need....

• Some of them were just hit by a bus 27 days after a positive test.
• Some of them were old anyway.
• Some of them had "underlying conditions".
• PCR false positives.
• Big pharma something errr

Add them all together and see if you can get to 171,801

There is so much misinformation on this topic which seems unbelievable given the amount of time that has elapsed since the start of the pandemic and people failing to educate themselves on exactly how covid deaths are measured.

The government figures and ones routinely used to justify legislation are all deaths registered within 28 days of a positive test for covid 19. This obviously includes covid deaths but also a myriad of different health conditions unrelated to covid but happened to have a covid 19 test returning positive in the 28 days prior to death. Most of these deaths are with covid rather than due to it including deaths which have nothing to do with covid at all.

The reason the number of death certificates have covid 19 on them which is subsequently higher than the aforementioned 28 day statistics is that all deaths which have involved any death within 28 days of a positive covid test on them are legally obliged to have covid 19 on as a contributary cause on the death certificate. Both numbers are actually inflating the true numbers of deaths due to covid contrary to with it as the latter is a much greater number than the former. To clarify, if an individual dies of cancer at 85 but has had a covid 19 positive test result within 28 days prior to death, this will have covid 19 on the death certificate and included in the " covid stats". My source unlike much of the rubbish written online to terrify people with death statistics is 2 members of my family including me who write the death certificate

In relation to the earlier comment of deaths over 28 days not included, this is a relatively rare occurrence and the overestimation of covid deaths using the two parameters of measurement just mentioned vastly outweigh the small number of deaths due to covid not recorded. The excess number to quantify the number of covid deaths is also disingenuous as the vast majority of deaths not expected ( excess deaths over a general average) within the time frame of the pandemic are non covid.

I hope this helps

@Northsoutheastwest76

basically throwing anything and everything in to inflate numbers so they can justify restrictions

Why would they do this? Restrictions cost the Govt.money. with furlough etc.

I wouldn't bother engaging.

Not really @NigelRoberts you're just repeating the same as the OP with longer sentences.

@NigelRoberts The reason the number of death certificates have covid 19 on them which is subsequently higher than the aforementioned 28 day statistics is that all deaths which have involved any death within 28 days of a positive covid test on them are legally obliged to have covid 19 on as a contributary cause on the death certificate.

1. This is bollocks.

2. Even if it were true - it wouldn't account for the tens of thousands of people with COVID on their death certificate who didn't die withing 28 days of their positive test.

Yep death range average 2 to 8 weeks so definitely some undercutting. Plus all those Dementia excess deaths in March 20 when there was no community testing. Also the excess death chart interesting for that period.

Undercounting.

@NigelRoberts

There is so much misinformation on this topic which seems unbelievable given the amount of time that has elapsed since the start of the pandemic and people failing to educate themselves on exactly how covid deaths are measured.

The government figures and ones routinely used to justify legislation are all deaths registered within 28 days of a positive test for covid 19. This obviously includes covid deaths but also a myriad of different health conditions unrelated to covid but happened to have a covid 19 test returning positive in the 28 days prior to death. Most of these deaths are with covid rather than due to it including deaths which have nothing to do with covid at all.

The reason the number of death certificates have covid 19 on them which is subsequently higher than the aforementioned 28 day statistics is that all deaths which have involved any death within 28 days of a positive covid test on them are legally obliged to have covid 19 on as a contributary cause on the death certificate. Both numbers are actually inflating the true numbers of deaths due to covid contrary to with it as the latter is a much greater number than the former. To clarify, if an individual dies of cancer at 85 but has had a covid 19 positive test result within 28 days prior to death, this will have covid 19 on the death certificate and included in the " covid stats". My source unlike much of the rubbish written online to terrify people with death statistics is 2 members of my family including me who write the death certificate

In relation to the earlier comment of deaths over 28 days not included, this is a relatively rare occurrence and the overestimation of covid deaths using the two parameters of measurement just mentioned vastly outweigh the small number of deaths due to covid not recorded. The excess number to quantify the number of covid deaths is also disingenuous as the vast majority of deaths not expected ( excess deaths over a general average) within the time frame of the pandemic are non covid.

I hope this helps

Exactly, and I'm not a covid denier and have had my jabs gratefully, thanks. There are lots of aspects to this covid situation, and it's not just two camps that neatly take up all individuals.

Just look at that excess death spike in March 20 non COVID when testing wasn't happening.

@NigelRoberts - if you really are a doctor and complete death certificates then you should know that the legal obligation for a doctor is to certify the cause of death “to the best of their knowledge and belief”

If you see someone squashed by a bus - but know they had a positive COVID test 27 days ago - there is no legal obligation on you to put COVID as a cause on the death certificate. To claim otherwise is BS.

The ONS explicitly records deaths 'due' to covid and 'involving' covid separately. The overwhelming majority are 'due' to covid. www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathssolelyfromcovid19ratherthandeathswithin28daysofapositivetest

@NigelRoberts

There is so much misinformation on this topic which seems unbelievable given the amount of time that has elapsed since the start of the pandemic and people failing to educate themselves on exactly how covid deaths are measured.

The government figures and ones routinely used to justify legislation are all deaths registered within 28 days of a positive test for covid 19. This obviously includes covid deaths but also a myriad of different health conditions unrelated to covid but happened to have a covid 19 test returning positive in the 28 days prior to death. Most of these deaths are with covid rather than due to it including deaths which have nothing to do with covid at all.

The reason the number of death certificates have covid 19 on them which is subsequently higher than the aforementioned 28 day statistics is that all deaths which have involved any death within 28 days of a positive covid test on them are legally obliged to have covid 19 on as a contributary cause on the death certificate. Both numbers are actually inflating the true numbers of deaths due to covid contrary to with it as the latter is a much greater number than the former. To clarify, if an individual dies of cancer at 85 but has had a covid 19 positive test result within 28 days prior to death, this will have covid 19 on the death certificate and included in the " covid stats". My source unlike much of the rubbish written online to terrify people with death statistics is 2 members of my family including me who write the death certificate

In relation to the earlier comment of deaths over 28 days not included, this is a relatively rare occurrence and the overestimation of covid deaths using the two parameters of measurement just mentioned vastly outweigh the small number of deaths due to covid not recorded. The excess number to quantify the number of covid deaths is also disingenuous as the vast majority of deaths not expected ( excess deaths over a general average) within the time frame of the pandemic are non covid.

I hope this helps

For what reason are they inflating deaths ? Anybody can claim to be anything on line .....

Merry bloody Christmas 😣

The reason the number of death certificates have covid 19 on them which is subsequently higher than the aforementioned 28 day statistics is that all deaths which have involved any death within 28 days of a positive covid test on them are legally obliged to have covid 19 on as a contributary cause on the death certificate

So you're saying there's a law which requires this?

Uh huh.

All legislation is published on the government website. So please can you direct me to this particular law.

all deaths which have involved any death within 28 days of a positive covid test on them are legally obliged to have covid 19 on as a contributary cause on the death certificate

Someone close to me died recently. Absolutely not related to covid. Contracted covid in a hospice where she was for end of life care - 8 days prior to her death. Covid-19 appears nowhere on her death certificate. Did the certifying doctor breach a legal obligation to do so?

My granda had a massive stroke, he was highly unlikely to recover, he happened to also catch covid and then he died. Me and my family believe the stroke killed him but stroke and covid are listed on his death certificate ( in more medical terms than that).

@Coasterfan I’m sorry for your loss.

You haven’t said if your grandfather caught covid before or after the stroke. If before, covid could very well have caused the stroke - it’s known to cause massive clotting issues. For the same reason, even if caught after, it could have impacted on his recovery.

@brass4

Hi! Just wondering if people knew whether the statistics the government release daily, for deaths in hospital, are for people who died OF Covid or WITH Covid? If they were dying and were already in hospital but also had Covid, would they be included in the death toll? Thanks

The ONS did analysis on this early in the pandemic. It showed that over 90% of those who died who had a Covid infection had Covid as the primary cause of death listed on the death certificate.

So, whereas the vast majority of Covid deaths are "from" Covid, a fair number - many thousands- are "with" Covid, and enough for there to be plenty of anecdotes about people dying in accidents with a Covid infection etc.

What would be interesting is to see how if that remains the case with Omicron.

@Coasterfan

My granda had a massive stroke, he was highly unlikely to recover, he happened to also catch covid and then he died. Me and my family believe the stroke killed him but stroke and covid are listed on his death certificate ( in more medical terms than that).

I'm sorry for your loss.

In the ONS analysis I mentioned, they only identified a Covid death where it was the primary cause of death on the death certificate, not simply listed.