Strict Covid Passports - surely this would help fix the problem?

[MyWordWhatAPalava]

Trying again to have a sensible discussion about this after a complete plonker troll derailed my thread yesterday and mnet had to take it down (fair play to mumsnet the troll was vile and all over the thread).

So my question is, being that this is what other countries are doing, why aren't we?

I agree that people should be able to choose whether to be vaccinated or not. I don't agree with forcing people to have something injected into their body that they don't want. HOWEVER, given the severe impact that decision is having on the economy, mental health and the NHS* (and by default hundreds of thousands of people who are having operations/treatment delayed) why shouldn't there be the necessity to have a vaccine passport to enter retail, leisure facilities etc?

That way, people who choose not to be vaccinated, can continue to remain unvaccinated whilst the vast majority of us can start getting back to normal as the omicron varient seems to be very mild in those who are vaccinated. Obviously there would be medical exemption for those who are medically unable to be vaccinated.

What are people's thoughts on this?

*a doctor friend said in her hospital the figures are still that 90% of Covid cases in ICU are unvaccinated. I'm not sure of the country-wide current figures but I think it's still the majority by a long stretch.

@mrshoho - I'm not sure the aim of the passports is so much to reduce transmission as to reduce the number of seriously ill patients.

@CherryRedDMs - that's interesting to know and backs up their usefulness.

@GeorgieTheGorgeousGoat - exactly!

I must admit, I have very little sympathy with HCPs who have seen first hand the devastation of Covid and still won't get vaccinated! All the medics I know are fully vaccinated and glad to be so.

Doesn't that tell you it's complex? some will have worked throughout & as you say seen first hand the devastation but still don't want it.

The problem isn't with people getting it. We, our health service and the economy, can cope with that.

I thought a big problem was nhs, entertainment & hospitality staff having to isolate despite some not actually being very ill?

I'm not in support of them tbh, although have had to use them 3 times to travel this year, which I didn't mind doing, so not fussed if they become regular

Yes it's staffing issues with nurses (all vaccinated and boostered) off.

I don't fully understand the benefit of covid passports. We are learning that protection from the vaccine wanes gradually and in some people this is faster than in others. So someone walking around with a covid passport could have very limited immunity depending on how long ago they had their most recent vaccine. Someone who had the booster in October could have half the protection now. Vaccines obviously have reduced the amount of people needing hospital treatment but I can't see how a vaccine passport will benefit in reducing transmission.

Yes this is one of my issues with them, my sister had her booster in Sept I think (nhs worker), I got mine in the last few days & brother will probably get it early Jan so we are all at different stages.

In other countries, they’re seeing that transmission is still occurring between the vaccinated. They have also introduced it for children in some countries, creating a two tier society for them as well.
We may be asked to have more boosters seeing as the omicron one is being developed and the vaccines efficacy tends to wane after 3 months or so. Are you prepared to keep your vaccine passports up to date with every booster, if required?
Be careful what you wish for. It could be a moving target.

Omicron is getting past strict checks though because it has an extremely short incubation period and is extremely easy to transmit.

There are multiple incidents where someone has done tests and is vaccinated but has subsequently given it to a huge number of people at a large gathering or on a flight.

The problem with omicron is the short incubation period and the fact it can breakthrough vaccine immunity (including those who have had a booster).

Even some virologists have said that vaccine passports aren't going to be very effective because of the nature of omicron and the advice is now to do a lateral flow no more than a couple of hours before you go somewhere to try and reduce this problem.

The danger here is that people think that vaccine passports ensure they are 'safe' when the reality is if you have a large number of people in any place when rates of omicron are high, you are still at relatively high risk as there are multiple failure points.

There are several European countries which are using vaccine passports much more strictly than anywhere in the uk who are experiencing steep sudden increases in case rates and they are anticipating problems in the next few weeks anyway.

It does worry me, the extent to which people are trusting LFTs alone.

@CherryRedDMs

The introduction of a vaccine passport brings up the vaccination rate drastically since everyone who was only a little hesitant or never got round to doing it gets a big nudge. (This has happened in other countries and would be likely to happen in the UK.) An extra 5–10% of the population vaccinated would help the UK a lot. It won’t reach the hardcore refusers but then nothing will.

So it’s not really about making it safer to be in public places because it ensures that people have either been vaccinated or fudged a LFT, it’s about coercing people into having a vaccine they don’t want.

That’s just all kinds of wrong IMO.

Are you prepared to keep your vaccine passports up to date with every booster, if required?

honestly? probably not. I don't see the point

Negative LFTs, unless carried out under supervision and recorded officially by a 3rd party, are useless. As a PP said, you can just scan barcode and report it as negative whether you (or anyone else) take the test or not.

I don't know what answer is. But I hope it's found soon.

Yes this is one of my issues with them, my sister had her booster in Sept I think (nhs worker), I got mine in the last few days & brother will probably get it early Jan so we are all at different stages.

[Not UK]. I don't see why this is an issue? The Covid pass will be linked to the date of your vaccination. How else would e.g. a just turned 12 year old be able to have a valid pass? It doesn't matter what date your brother was vaccinated on, what matters is when your second shot /booster was and the date of expiry will be updated when you e.g. get your booster.

also aren't people most infectious in the days before they test positive?

@SnowIsInTheAir the waning efficiency of the vaccine was my point.

[quote MyWordWhatAPalava]@mrshoho - I'm not sure the aim of the passports is so much to reduce transmission as to reduce the number of seriously ill patients.

@CherryRedDMs - that's interesting to know and backs up their usefulness.

@GeorgieTheGorgeousGoat - exactly![/quote]
Vaccine passports as a means to get mandatory vaccinations by the back door will go down like a lead balloon with the Tory Party and it creates a two tier society and undermines principles of medical consent.

I am opposed to it.

If you cannot persuade people by other means you are failing at your job.

mclaw. It's down to balance of probabilities over a population, not individual cases. Also some countries are reducing the length of validity from 12 months to 9. A vaccinated person is still less likely to transmit the virus and there is an average time after which the efficiency wanes. Obviously it's not practical to check every person, so they have to base their data on trials and averages.

I'm aware of that.

@RedToothBrush - I understand your reasoning about a back door way of compelling people to get vaccinated but honestly what else can be done?

People have had the use and safety of the vaccine explained but if they won't listen or aren't capable of understanding, what else can be done? It's not a matter of someone not doing their job properly, some people still believe black people are inferior to white, it's not because racism isn't explained well it's because their beliefs are deep rooted and unreasonable. Btw I am NOT equating people who don't have the vaccine with racists, I'm just saying people can have unreasonable beliefs, despite extensive education to the contrary.

People have had the use and safety of the vaccine explained but if they won't listen or aren't capable of understanding

There you have it, you apparently believe in consent but are calling for punishment of those who don’t. There’s also a problem with your understanding of being in favour of consent.

In your OP you said that you agreed that people should be allowed to choose to have the vaccine or not. Which to me is a basic requirement for a free society.

'But some of them aren't making the choice I agree with and I don't like their reasons, how can we coerce them into it?' is incompatible with that.

Covid, and even more so omicron, is fairly mild for the majority of the population. To keep having vaccines and boosters after many people have been exposed to covid, had it and recovered or are not high risk at all does not make sense to me.
Will children have boosters for the rest of their lives to keep their pass valid? Is no one else worried about this because I find it quite terrifying.

Lots of ethic minorities don't want the vaccine because of historic mistrust & racism.

Will children have boosters for the rest of their lives to keep their pass valid? Is no one else worried about this because I find it quite terrifying.

it's nonsensical & the acceptance of that is terrifying.

@RedToothBrush

Omicron is getting past strict checks though because it has an extremely short incubation period and is extremely easy to transmit.

There are multiple incidents where someone has done tests and is vaccinated but has subsequently given it to a huge number of people at a large gathering or on a flight.

The problem with omicron is the short incubation period and the fact it can breakthrough vaccine immunity (including those who have had a booster).

Even some virologists have said that vaccine passports aren't going to be very effective because of the nature of omicron and the advice is now to do a lateral flow no more than a couple of hours before you go somewhere to try and reduce this problem.

The danger here is that people think that vaccine passports ensure they are 'safe' when the reality is if you have a large number of people in any place when rates of omicron are high, you are still at relatively high risk as there are multiple failure points.

There are several European countries which are using vaccine passports much more strictly than anywhere in the uk who are experiencing steep sudden increases in case rates and they are anticipating problems in the next few weeks anyway.

It does worry me, the extent to which people are trusting LFTs alone.

@RedToothBrush can I ask where you heard that Omnicron has a shorter incubation than other variants? I hadn't heard this?

I'm not being goady, I hope it doesn't come across that way. I'm genuinely curious...