Testing in Germany & France

[poshme]

According to the data we have a much higher rate of cases per 1000 people than Germany (or France)

But we are testing 8x as much as Germany , and significantly more than France, with our positivity rate at about 4%, Germany at about 20% and France at 7%.

Surely that shows how they have far more cases, but they're just not picking them up.

Why aren't other countries testing as much?

I’m in Germany. Any LFTs you do unsupervised - at home or school - aren’t counted. They’re not ‘official’ tests so they aren’t added to the numbers.

School kids are tested 2/3 times per week at school. That’s literally millions of unreported tests.

My workplace are PCR-testing us every week. Many companies in my industry do the same, 1-3 tests per week.

The general population isn’t encouraged to test unless they have symptoms. Home LFTs aren’t free, it’s something like 2-3€ per test, so just for one person to be testing daily, that’s 100€ a month. If you have a family of 4 or 5, you’d be spending more on tests than on food.

Positive LFTs (administered by a medical professional) must be confirmed with a PCR. Only one of those two tests is counted, they don’t add both to the numbers.

We’re testing less than the UK, but not that much less. There is a difference in how each country reports numbers, and also who they test.

For example here, you still isolate if you’re a close contact of a positive case - eg someone in your household. You must stay in for 5 days. I know so many people in the UK who were a close contact (or had Covid in their household), got a ‘negative’ test in the first of couple of days, went out, met others, sent their kids to school, didn’t show symptoms until 5-7 days later because of the incubation period. They were allowed to go out spreading Covid instead of staying at home. That’s how Covid spreads.

Thanks that's interesting. I didn't know you had to pay for tests in Germany.

I know in the States the press Secretary laughed at someone who suggested free testing- there'd be outrage here if we had to pay for tests.

Same in France. Tests done at home aren't counted as "tests carried out" and nor are tests carried out on unvaccinated people by a chemist who need a négative result to go to à restaurant/ cinéma etc.
I teach and most of my colleagues are doing regular LTF at home but these don't appear in official statistics.

Tbh in common with many others we dint report our lft. Did so once only.

same in the netherlands.
unsupervised tests are not counted.
unvaccinated people, including children under 12 are encouraged to do a home test twice a week.
anyone with cold symptoms (vaccinated or not) should take a pcr test (always in an official test centre) and isolate until symptom free.

It's why raw testing numbers, like raw number of cases etc isn't that useful. It's the rate of positivity, so % of positive cases per 100,000 etc that's useful.
I'm in Italy (just under 800,000 tests yesterday) and tests have to be done by a pharmacy or the local health authority. Certain categories get them free- those few who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons, HCPs, teachers etc.
Whilst it's true that if you're actively looking for X, you'll find it, (oft quoted on here) it's also true that you'll only find it if it's there.
My region of Italy has pretty low cases of Covid, and overall yesterday those 800,000 cases pulled in 1.4% positivity. They could test 8,000,000 and the positivity isn't going to hit 10%.

Germany has far more medical oversight I think, so I suspect those going for tests are more likely to have it?

But a lot of people do report. Here we don’t even have the option to.

Criteria for testing is much wider here than in the UK. Many ‘rare’ symptoms get you a PCR automatically. In the UK I know so many people who still aren’t getting one because it’s not one of the ‘main 3’. They’re also required to go into work if they don’t have one of the main 3 symptoms. So we’re picking up more symptomatic cases because people are asked to test when in doubt. Turnarounds are also very quick if you have symptoms, none of this driving 50 miles to the only ‘local’ testing site with appointments, and then waiting 48h for a result. Here you have them by the end of the day.

We’re past April 2020, Covid manifests differently now. Testing criteria should be adjusted accordingly.

anyone with cold symptoms (vaccinated or not) should take a pcr test (always in an official test centre) and isolate until symptom free.

I think this is also key. Just because the test was negative, it doesn’t mean you’re not still incubating it.

If you’re ill, stay at home for a few days. But this was already normalised behaviour before Covid. In Germany at least, it was rude to go to work with a cold or a cough. You called your doctor, they signed you off sick, you stayed at home until symptoms were gone, instead of making others ill. Even if it was a simple cold.

@EileenGC

anyone with cold symptoms (vaccinated or not) should take a pcr test (always in an official test centre) and isolate until symptom free.

I think this is also key. Just because the test was negative, it doesn’t mean you’re not still incubating it.

If you’re ill, stay at home for a few days. But this was already normalised behaviour before Covid. In Germany at least, it was rude to go to work with a cold or a cough. You called your doctor, they signed you off sick, you stayed at home until symptoms were gone, instead of making others ill. Even if it was a simple cold.

yes, and then again you are either off on full pay, in germany and netherlands and other european countries, or you work from home if you can.

a relative is a teacher in germany and teaches from home if they have to isolate.

that's not to say that all is perfect in other countries. just different.

Both France and Germany have had a higher death rate than the U.K. in the past couple of weeks. At the moment, the U.K. seems obsessed with case numbers.

Deaths are also counted differently in different countries and the time it takes for the deaths to make it into official figures is different.
Even the criteria to go into ICU varies. In France they move people to ICU when oxygen levels are falling but not yet critical on the theory that if it becomes necessary it tends to happen very fast so the person can be tubed immediately without having to waste time finding a bed.

@Roseau18

Deaths are also counted differently in different countries and the time it takes for the deaths to make it into official figures is different. Even the criteria to go into ICU varies. In France they move people to ICU when oxygen levels are falling but not yet critical on the theory that if it becomes necessary it tends to happen very fast so the person can be tubed immediately without having to waste time finding a bed.

Which is why annual excess deaths are the most reliable statistic.

@Roseau18 that may be so but the death rate in Germany is currently almost three times the death rate in the U.K. That’s a massive difference.

Any LFTs you do unsupervised - at home or school - aren’t counted. They’re not ‘official’ tests so they aren’t added to the numbers.

But neither are they counted in the UK?

I believe if you report the test result in the UK it is counted. As someone said earlier in France it is not possible to self-report à test.
Nor are you ever epected to do your own swab for à PCR test or even fir à LFT if it is for anything other than prior to.mixing in public and even then you are supervised by the chemist to make sure you fo it correctly.
I think the travel tests in the UK where do your swab at home and then send a photo of your passport beside the test result are ludicrous. The swab could have been done by anyone.

LFTs done at home are not counted in UK either.
Test numbers reported every day are PCR tests. There are thousands of LFTs on top of that not in those figures published every day because you have to go and get a PCR if LFT is positive so same person would've counted twice!

Reported LFTs in the UK are counted. A lot of people report them, not everyone does of course.

The death rate is currently high in Germany because we’ve just come down from a wave in mid-November. Deaths start to grow 2-3 weeks after a peak. Whenever the current wave in the UK reaches its peak, we count 2-3 weeks from there to see what the death rate has been.

The UK’s overall death rate since the start of the pandemic is almost double than Germany’s.

Like Eileen: Tests you do yourself do not count.
My DS is tested several times per week at school and wears a mask. The tests, though supervised, are not official (they would not get you into a venue), we are tested at work (office) same rule here.
You get one official test per week for free and if you test positive, the PCR that follows is free, too. The positive result is automatically registered with health authorities, who take over from there.
If you need to isolate you get a paper for your employer, so you get payed if you cannot WFH, and you have to officially test out of isolation (I had 5 days added last month).

Reported LFTs in the UK are counted. A lot of people report them,

I don't know anyone who would report a lateral flow test done at home or school. The tests also aren't that reliable.

anyone with cold symptoms (vaccinated or not) should take a pcr test (always in an official test centre) and isolate until symptom free.

How would that work for someone like me who has permanent cold symptoms thanks to some unknown allergy?

I am in Scotland and the test numbers the Gov reports daily are PCR tests sent to a lab.

LFTs are not counted in the published daily statistics

@Blubells

Any LFTs you do unsupervised - at home or school - aren’t counted. They’re not ‘official’ tests so they aren’t added to the numbers.

But neither are they counted in the UK?

Exactly. You can report them but I doubt many people do, they just get a PCR, which does then go into the figures.

anyone with cold symptoms (vaccinated or not) should take a pcr test (always in an official test centre) and isolate until symptom free

it's amazing how so many MNers know better than the NHS advice. When the Zoe app found that many covid sufferers had a loss of taste and smell, it was added to the symptoms. The NHS must have decided not to add to the standard symptoms for good reason, not capriciousness.

And why would you continue to isolate if you did test with a sniffly nose and the test were negative?

I think we are just slightly further ahead - maybe a week maybe less.

It is picking up everywhere