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Covid

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'Covid exit strategy leaked - self isolation/testing could be scrapped by April'

80 replies

DavidDevantsSpiritWife · 15/11/2021 12:38

Reported by the Mail originally but picked up
elsewhere.

Could be a load of old tosh, could be that thing where they leak stuff/deny all knowledge/it happens anyway.

It was always bound to happen eventually of course, and I suppose post-winter would be the most sensible time to do it.

Feels strange, though, after everything. Positive in some ways, troubling in others - if you're immunocompromised or vulnerable in any way it's going to be worrying.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 16/11/2021 09:27

[quote Thewiseoneincognito]@RedToothBrush if we scrap testing we would lose sequencing for variants no? When the vaccine escaping one arrives, how will we know it’s here? Will we be testing the dead and the ones hospitalised with ‘pneumonia’?

If testing and isolation goes then booster uptake will start to dwindle too which will then create more opportunities for infections to climb.

The whole concept at this stage just seems like a very bad idea regardless of the money it’s costing us.[/quote]
I said we would lose lateral flow testing not PCR testing early in the new year.

We will definitely continue to do PCRs but I think it will be more restricted to severe cases, which result in hospitalisation. That will mean we will be able to continue to sequence but at a lower level. And arguably thats possibly not a bad thing. Firstly because sequencing is extremely expensive and secondly because we are currently doing a daft percentage of all the world's sequencing and I think there is a viable argument that says we don't need to be doing as much as that to be able to identify problems or potential problems. We only really know that a particular varient is a problem after you get a certain number of cases and hospitalisations. We probably would get enough data from sequencing severe cases alone. To try and explain it better; we might be up lots of new variants but thats not what we are looking for. What we are looking for is a sudden large number of people with a new variant who end up in hospital. Thats how you identify a variant of concern. You might get a new variant which displaces an older one which has lots of people catching it but its less virulent so less people are hospitalised. That a change but its not one we need to be concerned about. Our concern only involves hospitalisations and deaths in large numbers - and you actually don't identify that from sequencing large numbers of assymptomatic or mild cases. I would argue further that by the time you identify a new variant which is problematic its probably already too late to contain it easily. And unless you have similar levels of testing abroad, identifying problematic new variants in hospitals there you are flying blind anyway to an extent. We already know what individual protein spikes do, because we've been able to work that out from the data we already have. And we know how to deal with the viruse in different ways now and how this might change in future from modelling.

Our understanding of covid has now come on so much and our infrastructure in vaccine production and vaccine treatment is such that we are now better placed to deal with new difficult variants as they emerge than previously. I think the risk of a vaccine dodging variant is now somewhat overstated - we've moved on from that. That doesn't mean there isn't a risk; it means we think we can still identify the risk, respond to it promptly and have a number of different ways we can deal with it that we didn't before. The reality is there isn't a tangible benefit in carrying on sequencing to the level we have compared to the likely actual risk to a new covid variant.

This really is a fast moving area of research because we've thrown the kitchen sink at it. A lot of fears now are based on an historical position which we've now long since passed but the majority of the public probably don't fully appreciate and understand that.

Realistically research should start to be going into threats from future viruses (particularly other coronaviruses) now rather than threats from covid variants, because the former offers wider protection which also covers covid variants to an extent.

I think we are reaching the point where we have to ask hard nosed questions about what more we achieve by mass sequencing in the UK.

It has usefulness still in some other parts of the world for track and trace pursuing an elimination / minimisation strategy still but this isn't something we can do in the uk because thats not how we are handling the pandemic now.

RichTeaRichTea · 16/11/2021 09:28

“ Flu vaccines are best guest and could be a lot more accurate with increased testing. ”

Yes, I can imagine this would be very beneficial. I expect there is a happy medium but as you say, resources are not unlimited. My question was a genuine one - I don’t know how much testing is done for flu variants and how well it is managed, but clearly some is done rather than none

Fizbosshoes · 16/11/2021 09:32

This seems a silly question but the people processing the PCR tests in labs....what are their "normal" jobs and who is doing those?

At the test centre themselves (I think) there are a lot of students, and its not a skilled job. Those doing results in laboratories must be highly qualified but what is normally happening in those laboratories that isn't happening now?

Fairylights25 · 16/11/2021 09:36

I find it really worrying when I hear people say but if only we keep 1m away in shops it would all be okay.....they totally show they have simply not grasped the situation at all.

We are no longer trying to 'prevent' covid - please understand that simple point.

Why? Because (most of us) gave up the illusion of 'controlling' covid a very long time ago. You can't control and endemic airbourne virus for very long unless you are going to live in a cave for the rest of your days.

Does anyone really think the 1m rule will make an ounce of difference when the pubs and clubs are packed full of unmasked revellers, and parties are happening up and down the land. Schools packed full of snotty kids.

It is utter lunacy that people are still clinging on to old illusions.

Knownbyanothername · 16/11/2021 09:47

@Fairylights25 you speak the most sense. This is not going away but it’s not the huge scary monster it once was.
We’ve become conditioned to be afraid - it the early days it was right to be super cautious but it’s now time to start living again.

Timescale · 16/11/2021 09:51

I think my concern with lack of isolation is a repeat of what happened recently in the SW where covid positive people were going about their business because they didn’t know that they had covid. It didn’t end particularly well.

Hopefully cases will drop to a much more manageable level by spring.

frumpety · 16/11/2021 09:56

Is this exit strategy reliant on, if the introduction of the anti-virals for those deemed at high risk of severe illness is proven to be successful ?

containsnuts · 16/11/2021 09:58

@Fairylights25

I find it really worrying when I hear people say but if only we keep 1m away in shops it would all be okay.....they totally show they have simply not grasped the situation at all.

We are no longer trying to 'prevent' covid - please understand that simple point.

Why? Because (most of us) gave up the illusion of 'controlling' covid a very long time ago. You can't control and endemic airbourne virus for very long unless you are going to live in a cave for the rest of your days.

Does anyone really think the 1m rule will make an ounce of difference when the pubs and clubs are packed full of unmasked revellers, and parties are happening up and down the land. Schools packed full of snotty kids.

It is utter lunacy that people are still clinging on to old illusions.

Ok, but in general why can't there be more consideration for people's personal space. Why is it such a bizzare concept to have a bit of room between you and a perfect stranger at the supermarket. I'm not saying it needs to be mandated at '1 meter plus' but I can't understand why so many are keen to get back to cramming-in when there's space to step back a bit? I hope from this people can become a bit more considerate of others in public spaces.
Timescale · 16/11/2021 10:00

@containsnuts - I don’t get this herding instinct type thing either. I have always hated people in my personal space.

I just think people don’t think but I don’t get it. They are not going to be served any more quickly by hanging over me.

Fairylights25 · 16/11/2021 10:02

We were directly part of the outbreak you are describing time and guess what happened? Nothing. We all caught covid, as we are double jabbed we were all fine. It ripped through the schools for a few weeks and has run out of hosts, so numbers are dropping back. At no time was Gloucestershire Royal overwhelmed because the majority of people are protected by the vaccines. It was fine! Now we have all had it we can look forward to fun Christmas, job done.

Fairylights25 · 16/11/2021 10:22

Ok, but in general why can't there be more consideration for people's personal space. Why is it such a bizzare concept to have a bit of room between you and a perfect stranger at the supermarket. I'm not saying it needs to be mandated at '1 meter plus' but I can't understand why so many are keen to get back to cramming-in when there's space to step back a bit? I hope from this people can become a bit more considerate of others in public spaces

If it is your personal preference to have lots of space may I suggest you shop at quiet times and choose where you go more carefully avoiding weekends? Your personal preferences should not be influencing nationwide policy. There are many situations where personal space might be preferable (tubes for instance) but is simply not practical. I suggest you adjust your expectations or change the way you shop. I love being crammed in pubs with people personally. Great fun!

containsnuts · 16/11/2021 10:36

Like I said, I don't think it should be mandated - it's more about consideration for other people's personal space where there is room to do so.

Fairylights25 · 16/11/2021 10:48

I would like people consider lots of things, shit parking, swearing in the street and anti social behaviour but I won't be asking the government to pass laws to control other people. We don't live in China containsnuts

bentleydrummle · 16/11/2021 10:52

The mistake that our politicians (and others across the world) have made is not completely following scientific advice and muddling it up with politics. They should have left it to the epidemiologists from the get go

NO. We did not elect epidemiologists to run the country FFS.

Politicians need to balance healthcare against all of the other priorities of the nation, instead of sacrificing education, mental well being, the economy on the altar of COVID.

The problem was that they listened to "THE SCIENCE" over and above everything else.

Sparklingbrook · 16/11/2021 10:58

@Fairylights25

I would like people consider lots of things, shit parking, swearing in the street and anti social behaviour but I won't be asking the government to pass laws to control other people. We don't live in China containsnuts
Yes, I have a long list too.

It's pretty unbelievable that the government had to remind people to wash their hands though. Sad

nordica · 16/11/2021 11:13

The thing with "low level restrictions" like masks and distancing is that while they may not make a big difference to infection rates on a national scale, they do make things safer for those who are still wanting to avoid catching covid (for lots of reasons, not necessarily because they are "anxious" ). Sitting on a bus where everyone is wearing a mask is less of a covid risk than sitting on a bus where no one is wearing a mask, and unlike pubs and concerts, using public transport is not usually a choice.

Public transport is a good example of the lack of consideration in general though - how many times does someone sit next to you when there are lots of empty seats, or someone keeps their bag on a seat on a packed bus so others can't sit, puts their dirty shoes on the seat opposite where someone else is then going to sit later on, or eats smelly food that stinks out the whole carriage, and so on. Lots of people don't have any consideration for others so saying "we recommend you wear a mask" is not going to work, many people just won't care.

SummerHouse · 16/11/2021 11:25

@HelplesslyHoping

As always, people who can't have the vaccine and/or vulnerable are ignored while everyone else carries on as normal. Clearly people going to clubs, pubs and holidays for their 'mental health' is more important than anything else.

Vulnerable people can just keep on shielding and avoiding vital medical appointments just so people can stop worrying about doing a 10 second test. Great!

As always... I have isolated in lockdown. I have isolated when numerous coughs (not covid) have appeared. We have sanitised, worn masks, LF tested, regulars at PCR testing centers. I have home schooled and worked simultaneously (aka been to hell and back). I have gone months without seeing anyone. We cancelled Christmas plans. My boys have missed parties, school, holidays, clubs, school trips. We did all this to protect the vulnerable not ourselves. We have not carried on as normal for the last two years.
Fairylights25 · 16/11/2021 11:30

Yes sparkling handwashing guides for idiots and toddlers was actually quite offensive. The fact we also needed a song to tell us how long was beyond the pale, and yet people went along with it. It is so scary - the level of brainwashing, the manipulation of fear. For decades we will study this 'social experiment' in great detail, and it will cause terror and awe in equal measure. If anyone ever wondered how Nazi Germany managed to create the level of evil dysfunction that they did, they do not have to go far now to see how it is done. Just pick up any paper any day of the week or turn on sky news.

Fairylights25 · 16/11/2021 11:33

I personally think this country has had enough of any restrictions, and quite rightly after so long.
For once the gov advisors have read the room correctly. You can not ask people to put up this level of intrusion indefinitely. You will just have riots and mass protests and 'rule breaking' on a nationwide scale, stripping the government in the process of any authority whatsoever. Better to scale everything back and wait until we really really need it (if we do) and let people live their lives. We are a free country, and I am so glad for it when I see what is happening in Austria, Italy etc and the backlash it is creating.

Djifunrsn · 16/11/2021 11:34

My 1m comment has been totally misunderstood.

In most shops round here, it’s absolutely possible.

Furthermore, I did not suggest it to prevent the spread - I know it will spread through schools, nightclubs etc.

The reason I suggested it is to protect the most vulnerable in shops. Elderly people on chemo for eg. Those people will not be in nightclubs and if infected revellers ensure they stay 1m from people in other settings, the very vulnerable have a bit more hope of being able to use basic shops.

If you see an elderly person, with a stick, bent over struggling to walk with a mask on then it damn well is your responsibility to keep 1m from them in a shop.

allbartwo · 16/11/2021 11:41

It's pretty unbelievable that the government had to remind people to wash their hands though.

Nobody asked to be reminded did they? It's not like everybody would have just not bothered if there wasn't signs everywhere. People aren't as stupid as some like to think.

ExceptionalAssurance · 16/11/2021 11:47

@Fairylights25

Ok, but in general why can't there be more consideration for people's personal space. Why is it such a bizzare concept to have a bit of room between you and a perfect stranger at the supermarket. I'm not saying it needs to be mandated at '1 meter plus' but I can't understand why so many are keen to get back to cramming-in when there's space to step back a bit? I hope from this people can become a bit more considerate of others in public spaces

If it is your personal preference to have lots of space may I suggest you shop at quiet times and choose where you go more carefully avoiding weekends? Your personal preferences should not be influencing nationwide policy. There are many situations where personal space might be preferable (tubes for instance) but is simply not practical. I suggest you adjust your expectations or change the way you shop. I love being crammed in pubs with people personally. Great fun!

Yes, this. People need to understand that they simply don't have a right to personal space in some public situations.

Sure, in an otherwise empty shop there's no need for the person behind you in the queue to be breathing down your neck. A metre is a reasonable enough expectation there. Equally, if you're in the Tesco bread aisle on Saturday afternoon, you need to expect close contact. And ultimately the onus is on people who don't want others close to them in public spaces that we're all equally entitled to be in to tailor their own participation accordingly.

Sparklingbrook · 16/11/2021 11:48

@allbartwo

It's pretty unbelievable that the government had to remind people to wash their hands though.

Nobody asked to be reminded did they? It's not like everybody would have just not bothered if there wasn't signs everywhere. People aren't as stupid as some like to think.

There's a fair few people that needed reminding TBF. Not washing your hands is definitely a thing, from what I've seen and from threads on here even.
munchbunch12 · 16/11/2021 11:55

@SummerHouse has it spot on, it hasn't exactly been easy for those of us lucky enough to not be considered CEV and we have made massive sacrifices to protect the vulnerable over the past 20 months.

Fairylights25 · 16/11/2021 13:07

The ‘vulnerable’ shouldn’t be in busy supermarkets! If they are at that much risk they should be having deliveries and avoiding crowds.
It’s not for the whole of society to second guess who might be vulnerable ffs?!
And if your ships are so spacious everywhere to accommodate 1m spacing by everyone which i find extremely hard to believe - then expect that to change by Christmas!!
And are you sure that every elderly person even wants to be treated like social lepers as people back away slowly?? How offensive just to assume that millions of older people would be okay with that 🤨

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