Singapore the first country to charge unvaccinated by choice Covid patients

[Alondra]

The precedent is already being set. I wonder how many other countries will follow.

www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-09/singapore-to-bill-unvaccinated-covid-19-patients/100606366

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/09/singapore-to-start-charging-covid-patients-who-are-unvaccinated-by-choice

www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/11/08/singapore-unvaccinated-medical-costs-health-care-covid-19/

... or when they will extend the principles to other "by choice" lifestyle factors. And if not, why not?

Probably because other ‘by choice’ lifestyle factors don’t make you more likely to pass on infection and / or encourage potential variants.

I am probably the most rabid pro vaxxer on here but I do not think this is a good idea

I don’t agree with it, btw, but the argument isn’t really a valid one.

Motorbikers have to wear helmets to avoid extra people (very crippled after surviving an accident) from becoming a huge burden on the state.

Lots of people try the argument that smokers shouldn't receive treatment for smoking-related illness. It's not implausible that this idea would gain traction & get implemented somewhere. Also for obesity, alcoholism... idea could be extended to those who do extreme sports, too. Once the principle is established, what are its boundaries -- and if covid, why not flu, ebola, measles, chickenpox, SARS, etc.?

Singaporean laws are extremely draconian by Western standards. I’m not sure that you can assume that many countires will copy them.

Indeed. They are brutal. Was just reading today about the learning disabled man who is going to be executed by Singapore for being a drug mule.:(

I wouldn’t be surprised if Indonesia, Malaysia and the Phillipines follow suit.

Is covid treatment paid for by the state in countries where you need health insurance normally? Is it free in the US?

I can remember reading on the landing card in Singapore that drug trafficking will result in death so it’s not a surprise they’re doing this!

Is all other medical care free or just Covid, if it's just covid it sounds like it was an exception anyway because of the pandemic

@Backasecondtime

Is all other medical care free or just Covid, if it's just covid it sounds like it was an exception anyway because of the pandemic

I want to know this - it doesn't say in any article I've read about it, and it's really quite important in order to understand the situation.

Yes it makes a big difference because if you generally have to pay it just sounds like they had a special dispensation for covid so then that would be fair enough

I think its a good idea. Treatment is so expensive. Would be interested to see varying nhs estimated costs.
Why exactly should the rest of us pay? But also covid further takes away from nhs appts and treatments. People on another theead waiting a year for gallbladder op. Others on there having to pay..

But i wouldnt agree if we only had AZ vax due to the known risks.
I would equally maybe not charge for obesity or smoking related but do more. Plus covid is just asking for a simple vax. I would expect obese or smoker to do at least that much if it made a difference.
My ex smoker relative then became a shielder for covid so more work on putting peoplevoff would be good

When it comes to any ideas to force or coerce vaccination, I'm concerned for people who have a good medical reason to not have the vaccine that the bureaucracy won't accept. There are countless stories of it taking people years to get a diagnosis they should have had straight away because of mistakes and bias by doctors.

@lljkk

... or when they will extend the principles to other "by choice" lifestyle factors. And if not, why not?

Other 'by choice' already contribute. Eg.. smoking taxes, sugar tax, alcohol tax, etc. Also sometimes obese patients have to lose weight prior to certain surgeries.

And obviously like pp say, those other choices don't infect others including the HCP looking after them.

Smokers are in fact a net gain to the economy. (Despite this, for some reason the much loved 'freeedddom' the Westminster government encourages wrt a contagious disease that kills and disables isn't extended to smokers. So we have people given 'personal responsibility' to not wear a mask on a train but a smoker isn't allowed the same freedom of choice over smoking on the train.).

@MareofBeasttown

Indeed. They are brutal. Was just reading today about the learning disabled man who is going to be executed by Singapore for being a drug mule.:(

People in glass houses...

Our (UK) brutal treatment of the disabled earned us condemnation from the United Nations.

Singapore regularly comes close to top in the lists of places to live with the best quality of life. Well deserved too.

They have one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world. It's a very safe - and civil - society, and is somewhere with an excellent understanding of and respect for good hygiene and infection control.

Singapore, like much of East Asia, gets that health is wealth, and wealth is health.

But Singapore doesn’t have free healthcare. And the article says:

“Singapore's Ministry of Health (MOH) says the government has been paying full coronavirus medical costs of all Singaporeans, permanent residents and long-term pass holders since the pandemic began.”

So it sounds like they’ve just removed that specific benefit for unvaccinated people. As opposed to them having a system like the NHS and bringing in charges for unvaccinated covid patients. Which is quite a different thing.

As usual the devil is in the detail, bit of a non story if healthcare isn't free anyway and it was just a extra benefit.

Free Treatment will persist for the vaccinated, though.... (?)

What if the person with new covid diagnosis was vaccinated but ignored all other social distancing rules -- suppose they caught Covid at an illegal rave. Should they still get free treatment? What if the unvaccinated person was otherwise very observant of covid control rules?

The precedent being established here is bad one because the regulation is capricious and inconsistent with other policies & principles.

Singapore has universal subsidised healthcare, not free healthcare. Its very good and cheap. People make payments like national insurance but it goes into their own medical insurance fund against future healthcare. So withdrawing the free covid treatment for the unvaccinated is withdrawing a temporary benefit, and won't earn masses of money, as the cost to the patient will still be relatively low. Its about sending a message, as, of the 50 people in intensive care on a certain day this week, 49 were unvaccinated. Vaccination rates are very high but there's a stubborn (older) section of society that have refused, and this is targeting them.

@110APiccadilly
I am from Singapore (live in London now) and healthcare is not free for the general population. It is a complex system funded by a mandatory savings scheme (20% of income by individual, 17% of income by employer) which can be used for healthcare (in addition to pension/property), mandatory health insurance and government subsidies (means tested and level of subsidy depending on what class of ward you choose + your income/property value). My grandma was in hospital for a month due to stroke and my dad had to pay out £5k for her out of pocket (she didn't qualify for much subsidy as she lived with my parents in private housing and she did not have much money in her health savings account as she only worked during the 1960s and 1970s when Singapore was quite poor).

Covid 19 treatment in Singapore was an exception to the rule, it was free for all citizens and permanent residents regardless of your situation. Now they have removed that blanket rule for the non vaxers, it does not mean that all the non vaxers are now going to be bankrupted by covid 19 ICU treatment if they need it (which would be very expensive). I assume they still qualify for whatever subsidies they would be eligible for if they had gotten any other illness, and they would still have their medical savings account(medisave). I was looking at purchasing covid 19 travel insurance for my DH who is British when we travel to Singapore next year as he is not eligible for any subsidies and it is possible so it medical insurance companies are probably still covering covid 19 treatment under their policies. However I expect if they do end up in the ICU, there is a possibility of running up thousands that have to be paid for out of pocket.

Edit to last comment:

www.straitstimes.com/singapore/integrated-shield-plan-now-covers-covid-19-vaccination-complications-that-lead-to

This is the basic medical insurance plan that I have (have to have medical insurance even though I live in London as a Singapore citizen). It seems that it only covers vaccinated people. So it seems it would not pay out if I wasn't vaccinated. Thankfully I am!