How long are children protected with vaccine?

[neveradullmoment99]

Anyone know? Does it fade for them? Especially after having just the one. I can't seem to find any information about longevity of immunity for the children 12-15 who have had it.
Just curious.

As boosters are being given 6 months after 2 doses I can't imagine 1 dose lasting very long

I agree and no-one seems to be talking about it!

It is not just how long will they be protected but is the current vaccine actually up to date as regards Delta plus- how well does it really work for delta plus. Pfizer is currently raking it in on all accounts. People including governments are so scared of Covid they are not questioning big pharma enough anymore.

I think there will be ongoing reviews of data from other countries to look at adverse effects.

The data sheet for the doses for 12 -15s seems to have potential for putting a second dose on, and I think it is very likely that, in a month or 2, a decision will be made to give a second dose.

One option might be for the second dose to be slightly smaller (I am sure that there are research studies looking at different dose efficacy, it is what you would expect the scientists and pharmaceutical companies to do).

Regarding waning immunity, it is certainly possible that children will have a different/ better response to vaccines and also possible that their response will last longer (we know that the immune response can be affected by age). Again, I would expect that there is some research ongoing to look at this.

I think the pharmaceuticals companies have done a very good job of producing effective vaccines in a short space of time. Astra Zeneca, especially, did so aiming not to make a profit at all (I think they have been created very unsympathetically and this will put off other companies doing similar in any future crisis, which is a shame).

I think we should be very admiring of Big Pharma on this showing (and improve our STEM education so ha people can understand it better).

My understanding is that the younger the person the better the immune response. Which is why they're doing boosters for the oldest first.

They probably don't have the data to confirm this for the covid vaccines yet though.

My understanding is that the younger the person the better the immune response. Which is why they're doing boosters for the oldest first

But there's two sort of vaccine inefficiency at the moment, one is poor immune response at all, that's why we're doing the 3rd dose and subsequent booster in people most likely to have this. However this is the sort where the young immune system is likely to not get, not the other sort where the vaccine fades, we obviously don't know details of how or why it fades (if indeed it genuinely does fade, or if it's simply delta and opportunity that makes it look like it fades)

Because we don't know, we don't know if it's likely to fade more in younger, however the Israel data which is all we've really got due to timing is that the fade is seen across age groups in which case it's unlikely that the "non fade" would happen under 18.

We don't have any data though, Israel are concerned enough that they deny entry if you only have not had a booster if you were vaccinated over 180 days ago regardless of your age.

This is exactly the reason they need to start taking natural immunity seriously. I bet that doesn’t need topping up, if only they’d take notice of the growing number of studies trying to demonstrate that natural immunity is much more robust and apparently longer lasting than vaccine immunity and not just be completely obsessed with vaccines that nobody has any long term data or proper answers for.

@Lostinacloud

This is exactly the reason they need to start taking natural immunity seriously. I bet that doesn’t need topping up, if only they’d take notice of the growing number of studies trying to demonstrate that natural immunity is much more robust and apparently longer lasting than vaccine immunity and not just be completely obsessed with vaccines that nobody has any long term data or proper answers for.

Recent research has found vaccine immunity provides greater protection than natural immunity alone! covid.joinzoe.com/post/covid-vaccine-natural-immunity-difference#

Thanks for everyone's informative responses. I guess we just have to wait and see...
My own to teenagers have been vaccinated but that was a number of weeks ago.

two not to

@LilyPond2
The studies linked in this US news article all note the multi armed natural immune response and question the same as me…why is this repeatedly ignored.

www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/15/natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate/

The problem with getting infected rather than getting vaccinated is that people get very ill and die with that. Not everyone, obviously, but enough people for it to be a problem.

If people get vaccinated first, before getting infected, that is very protective.

So there is an advantage in widespread vaccination.

I apologise if that seemed obvious.

@Lostinacloud

This is exactly the reason they need to start taking natural immunity seriously. I bet that doesn’t need topping up, if only they’d take notice of the growing number of studies trying to demonstrate that natural immunity is much more robust and apparently longer lasting than vaccine immunity and not just be completely obsessed with vaccines that nobody has any long term data or proper answers for.

This is just based on my own experience, but DH has had covid twice, the second time 5 months after the first. Both confirmed with pcr due to symptoms and being in close contact with a positive case. As a result he was contacted by PHE to be part of a study looking into natural antibodies. So natural immunity doesn't necessarily last that long.

Should also add that both times he caught it were before he had the vacinations.

I’m not at all against vaccinating those at risk for their own protection and for anyone who has previously had an infection or not. But those who have previously been infected and recovered have effectively been “vaccinated” naturally and now possess the same antibodies produced by the vaccine response so why can’t this be acknowledged. Considering the number of under 18’s now believed to have been infected this sort of recognition would be useful while the world invokes vaccine restricted travel.

@567and I’d be interested to know if he had symptoms both times?
I got infected before vaccinations as well and despite coming into contact with it again many times, have never contracted it again (at least to my knowledge).

@sirfredfredgeorge

My understanding is that the younger the person the better the immune response. Which is why they're doing boosters for the oldest first

But there's two sort of vaccine inefficiency at the moment, one is poor immune response at all, that's why we're doing the 3rd dose and subsequent booster in people most likely to have this. However this is the sort where the young immune system is likely to not get, not the other sort where the vaccine fades, we obviously don't know details of how or why it fades (if indeed it genuinely does fade, or if it's simply delta and opportunity that makes it look like it fades)

Because we don't know, we don't know if it's likely to fade more in younger, however the Israel data which is all we've really got due to timing is that the fade is seen across age groups in which case it's unlikely that the "non fade" would happen under 18.

We don't have any data though, Israel are concerned enough that they deny entry if you only have not had a booster if you were vaccinated over 180 days ago regardless of your age.

Reading this confirms - it’s all being made up as we go along. No one really has a clue about any of this. Scientists, governments, no one.

So there’s no point trying to get your head rounds it. No point in stressing.

This is still a very new situation; I doubt there is very good evidence yet on how immunity progresses in children after vaccination.

No one is "making up" anything at all, it just takes time to do studies .

I had a quick look and found a pre-print study in which the waning of immune responses of elderly care home residents (average age 70 odd) and their carers (average age 48) appeared to be similar.

However, it is quite plausible that the immune responses of much younger people might be different to this; young people seem to be less susceptible to covid anyway, thank goodness.

I guess the built-in delay allows for time to get more data (it seems a shame that vaccination wasn't rolled out more quickly to the 12-15s, but this lag does allow us to scrutinise other nations' results; that is the advantage; it is very much the opposite of "making things up")

What does vaccine waning even mean? As a lay person ie non medically qualified I understand there are types of viruses and bacteria. Steady ones and those that mutate a lot. So mmr you have 2 doses- 80 per cent of persons first dose works and you do second dose for the additional 10 per cent it didn’t work for and you acknowledge it might not work for remaining 10 per cent. But you then assume life long immunity. Flu on the other hand mutates constantly so you second guess what it might be and produce a vaccine. So to me the big question is in which category is Covid?

I presume Covid is more like a flu, hence the all different variants we've seen so far.
I don't believe you can assume life long immunity for MM or R.

@Lostinacloud Yes, symptoms both times, much worse the second time and some symptoms like tiredness and dizziness lingered for a few weeks. In fact he still sufferes with dizziness a few months on. The antibody trial he was on happened whilst he was also getting the vaccines and they said this was fine as they knew the how the body responded to the vaccine which gives a different response than natural antibodies do. I’ll ask him for his actual results but I know that they could tell him his antibody count from the vaccine separately from
his natural antibodies and that they were not the same.

Our DS who is 12 has it at the minute and has been quite poorly all week. I’m hoping DHs natural and vaccine antibodies keep him from catching it a third time.

111.wales.nhs.uk/LiveWell/Vaccinations/MMRFAQs/#3
Mmr vaccine: measles and rubella lasts 20 plus years/lifelong - mumps is thought to wane around 20 years. Mumps can cause infertility in boys. Hence some countries boost before university.
I doubt giving teens one Covid vaccine will produce any long lasting immunity. But our Nhs leaflets seems to suggest our teens will get a second dose later.
Flu vaccine is one shot and is expected to wane within 5/6 months too but because it mutates it is updated yearly. So we will see in the future how the Covid vaccines pan out and if they update them.

DS has recently had covid and it's flared up his asthma. I'm trying to work out the optimum time for him to have the vaccine as he doesn't want covid again unvaccinated. I'm thinking spring so 6 months post infection, and hoping double dose available by then - would think second dose in the summer as longer gap better - but hoping to travel abroad then!

This article by Swedish doctor Sebastian Rushworth discusses vaccine effectiveness over time, and to be honest, it's not looking great. Moderna is the most effective (probably because it's the biggest dose given), but even that wanes.

Whether the same waning in effect occurs in the under 18s we simply don't know yet, but for those older, it's problematic.

sebastianrushworth.com/2021/11/05/covid-how-long-does-vaccine-based-immunity-last/

The purpose of the study was to determine how effective the vaccines are at protecting against covid over the longer term (i.e. after more than a few months).

Research article (pre-print) that he's discussing:

papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3949410

Flu on the other hand mutates constantly so you second guess what it might be and produce a vaccine. So to me the big question is in which category is Covid?

SARS-COV-2 as a virus isn't that similar to the influenza virus, the latter has its genome in 8 segments which can shuffle and reassort with another virus particle's genome inside the infected cell to give much bigger mutation possibilities. As SARS-COV-2 is a Coronavirus, these have a handy 'proof reading' enzyme that checks copies as they're being made and removes bits that aren't accurate. So the error rate i.e. mutations is much lower.

www.virology.ws/2009/06/29/reassortment-of-the-influenza-virus-genome/