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Are anyone else's kids getting distressed with all the testing?

154 replies

musicalfrog · 04/11/2021 06:48

Our LA has asked that all children ages 2 and up are LF tested twice weekly.

My child age 8 hates getting tested, we've done it about 5 times in as many weeks due to symptoms and close contacts, every time it's been negative. I really don't want to put my kids through it any more. Anyone else feeling the same?

OP posts:
Nikki305 · 04/11/2021 21:48

It's because nurseries require children to be tested if they have a cough etc

annlee3817 · 04/11/2021 22:05

Sadly my 6 year old DD is ok with it, she has allergy Asthma which presents itself in the form of a cough, so has had so many PCRs and LFT that it's almost normal, I hate it that she has to :(

Timeisavirtue · 04/11/2021 22:35

Ds13 has ASD, we had to do one on him a few weeks ago, never again, he got so distressed, caused a meltdown that lasted several hours. I’ll just be keeping him off school if he gets symptoms...

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2021 22:49

@millymollymandypandy

I know I'll get flamed for this but it amazes me how much fuss people can make about a cotton bud up the nose for ten seconds!

My DC is clinically vulnerable and could die because your child can't have ten seconds of discomfort Sad

Actually, people who are traumatised by medical procedures can end up dying because they are less likely to seek prompt medical attention or consent to invasive procedures in future because trust about health care has been broken.

One of the reasons that people decline vaccines is precisely because they have developed a phobia of needles for example. Often this is due to a previous poor experience.

We shouldn't sneer and minimise the experiences of others who find something distressing for this reason. We shouldn't trivalise the anxiety of children (or adults) over invasive medical procedures.

We shouldn't mandate complusory testing for all where consent is removed - keeping in mind that small children do not have the capacity to consent to testing on their own. Keep in mind that the reason the government, SAGE and the medicine regulator haven't approved the vaccines for under 12s is because there is no health benefit to them personally and ethically they shouldn't be having vaccines for the sake of others - potentially at the expense of their own health in some way. If daily lateral flows are distressing children, then ethically you have to argue the same point - is it in their interest to subject them to them?

And I will stress, with small children it not just putting a cotton bud up the nose - its often restrainting a child who doesn't understand what you are doing to them and is finding it unpleasant and therefore puts up a fight or is genuinely upset by the experience.

Whilst your priority is to protect your child - its also the priority of others to protect their own children. Not forgetting the risk to children, even if they are clinically vulnerable, still remains much lower than the general population.

If you have a problem with this, then lobby for more appropriate tests for small children which are available in other countries.

Don't lecture others or try to emotionally blackmail others by minimising why they have a problem with regular asymptomatic lateral flows for small children, which are not even advised by government in this age group anyway.

Sure I have every sympathy but this is ethically not as straightward as you are making out. Not by a long stretch.

Autumnleavesfalling · 04/11/2021 22:49

I have made the choice not to.

So shoot me 🤷‍♀️

musicalfrog · 04/11/2021 23:28

Thank you everyone for the thoughtful comments. I won't be testing mine. I'm in two minds whether I'll ever test them again tbh. If they get symptoms I'll discuss it with them but I won't be testing them against their will any more.

I agree with you @Lostinacloud it's time the world found its sanity again!

The comment about small children being afraid of their flu vaccine made me feel so sad.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 05/11/2021 00:16

@Caramellatteplease

they don’t have any context of ‘other kids are having much worse procedures’.

That might be a good place to start, teaching them how luck they are in life. Understanding why you are doing the test that you are part of a community and that everyone can help each other is another option.

I certainly wouldn't be so "nice" a parent as to let my kids think screaming hysterically over something as invasive as picking your nose is normal.

Anxiety is not rational.

You cannot just tell small kids not to be anxious.

I find attitudes like this to anxiety are backwards and dated. Its the equivalent of telling someone depressed to 'cheer up'. Not to mention neglecting developmental milestones.

Young kids don't have the capacity to understand that others have it worse. They aren't at that stage of development yet. You are looking at about age 7 when you can really start saying that children are getting to that point. And thats for children who don't have issues like autism.

As for saying lateral flows aren't invasive and playing the hierarchy of dreadful experience bullshit, do fuck off.

People have different levels of tolerance for things for starters. Minimising and saying that someone's distress isn't valid because someone else has it worse is an appalling attitude to have when its adults involved. When its kids, it just disgusts me.

An invasive procedure by its very nature can be scary even if it doesn't hurt or only takes a second. Its the loss of control or the inability to understand why something unpleasant is happening and be able to say no thats the issue. We have consent guidelines and ethics for a reason.

I am actually quite shocked at some of the posters who think its ok to carry on with procedures without due cause and when its not of real benefit to them in terms of their own health in the context of cases being stable at the present time (and nothing to suggest thats going to change rapidly anytime soon).

If adults or older children want to do lateral flows they can consent to them and understand why it might be important. Having this capacity is hugely important though.

Consent (in any situation) means nothing if we don't understand how and why capacity to make decisions and make informed decisions is so important.

PHE and the local council have been involved in giving advice for a large outbreak at DS school. Even now they are only suggesting regular lateral flows for yrs 5 and 6 (over 10s). Thats for a reason..

CaringCarol · 05/11/2021 00:20

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Changechangychange · 05/11/2021 00:26

I certainly wouldn’t be doing twice weekly lat flows on a toddler.

Mine now cries “no swab! No swab!” every time he gets ill in any way. He has learned that being ill means being swabbed. It is horrible.

RedToothBrush · 05/11/2021 00:49

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CaringCarol · 05/11/2021 01:42

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CaringCarol · 05/11/2021 01:45

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MercyBooth · 05/11/2021 02:17

YY @RedToothBrush Its part of the reason i havent had a smear test for seven years. I find them incredibly painful and got fed up with the campaigns that minimized that.

containsnuts · 05/11/2021 03:20

If your child finds it particularly distressing to do regular tests then don't do it. That's a good reason to be exempt. For millions of other kids who can manage, I think it's important to keep doing it. Not just to protect vulnerable people but if we don't try to get an accurate picture of what's going on how can we ever know if future restrictions, child vaccines, passports etc will be justified? If we don't have the data, how can we hold government accountable for their actions/lack of action in the future?

beentoldcomputersaysno · 05/11/2021 04:38

@RedToothBrush 'Keep in mind that the reason the government, SAGE and the medicine regulator haven't approved the vaccines for under 12s is because there is no health benefit to them personally and ethically they shouldn't be having vaccines for the sake of others - potentially at the expense of their own health in some way.' I hadn't heard about this. Is there somewhere you can point me too?

Taswama · 05/11/2021 07:53

Great post @RedToothBrush .
The headmaster at DS1's school tried to tell us he couldn't attend school in lockdown in January this year if he wasn't prepared to do LFTs.
He is autistic.

I asked him if how telling someone that they must consent to a medical procedure in order to access their education fitted with safeguarding guidelines on consent.

RedToothBrush · 05/11/2021 08:20

The strategy at schools and nurseries is that parents and other adults around young children should test using lateral flows regularly. Not the children themselves.

The theory is that the vaccines provide something of a 'firewall' and that they simply don't want to get much overspill of infection from those in direct contact with children. For the most part thats actually happened to this point. The biggest transmission points are schools and within a household. The decision to allow people from a covid infected household who test negative to carry on without an isolation period is the flaw in strategy and primarily leading to the overspill because people take a couple of days to catch covid and don't immediately test positive even though they might be infectious - testing isn't helping us on this - if anything its leading to false sense of security. As waning immunity is kicking in, its meaning more older people are now starting to get covid again. Hence something of a panic around boosters.

But there is a key point that infections can only run for so long in children before numbers start to drop off. Half term has provided a firebreak which may distort the picture a bit, but there was some suggestion that case numbers in some areas of the country did peak around mid October before half term. We have to wait to see if thats the case.

We are going to hit a point where testing at this level is unviable to continue for a number of reasons. Cost being a huge one. The cost of lateral flows is estimated to be the equivalent of a penny on income tax, so there will be a big (controversial) decision about reducing their use come January / February in my opinion. We simply cannot be over reliant on them in the medium to long term. I know some people are using them because of over anxiety - i have friends who have admitted using them multiple times a day. Thats also not healthy psychologically.

We also have the news that we've got this new drug which can help reduce hospitalisations which was approved yesterday. So we are going to see an emphasis shift to that for at risk groups I suspect. It will possibly be a cheaper option.

But above all it gets me that its framed as a moral duty of a 4/5 year old to do an invasive distressing invasive medical test because otherwise parents are 'selfish' rather than there being some self reflection about those saying it and how its all about their concerns without thought to the child, and the blame isn't shifted to a government level decision to not invest in salvia tests which would be much better for the interests of the child.

Its easy to stand screeching about how 'anti-testers' are evil without properly engaging about what's going on, thinking about other flaws in strategy, questioning why adults seem to be putting responsibility on very young children, asking about alternative ways to test, think about the science of how unvaccinated groups will be pools of infection but thats time limited, thinking about other solutions and how viable testing is in the medium to long term.

I think a few people need to go have a good hard think about how its not that simple, which unintended consequences and indirect impacts are and how young children lack the ability to understand, rationalise and tolerate certain things precisely because they are young children.

All this demonisation of people 'doing the wrong thing' needs to stop. People need to start listening harder about why they are making those choices. Mistrust of authority or phobias are massively dismissed as selfishness rather than proper engagement being applied to build trust, offer support or offer alternative options. There have been posters who have said as much if you actually talk to them properly and start to use some fucking empathy yourself.

Empathy only seems to be something that other people are obliged to give and I find that really quite telling and revealing.

People who are clinically vulnerable or have a relative who is and are therefore extremely anxious about covid are the only ones allowed to be extremely anxious. They are socially given licence to hit out at others who dont 'comply' without any thought applied as to why others might behave differently or might have serious anxieties of their own.

ExceptionalAssurance · 05/11/2021 10:32

Very true RTB. Some of the attitudes on this thread are horrifying.

TempsPerdu · 05/11/2021 10:47

But above all it gets me that its framed as a moral duty of a 4/5 year old to do an invasive distressing invasive medical test because otherwise parents are 'selfish' rather than there being some self reflection about those saying it and how its all about their concerns without thought to the child

Hear hear RTB. One of the most insidious and depressing aspects of the pandemic has been the moral panic around children, who have been othered and scapegoated throughout.

The attitude of some posters on here towards children has been positively Victorian - essentially chattels with no agency who uncomplainingly have things done to them.

MarshaBradyo · 05/11/2021 10:56

Very much agree with last few posters. Sad to see on here so frequently

MrsPelligrinoPetrichor · 05/11/2021 10:56

@millymollymandypandy

I know I'll get flamed for this but it amazes me how much fuss people can make about a cotton bud up the nose for ten seconds!

My DC is clinically vulnerable and could die because your child can't have ten seconds of discomfort Sad

No flaming from me,I quite agree.
Wingingthis · 05/11/2021 10:56

Have never tested my young children & never will! If I think they have COVID I’ll keep them home

LyricalBlowToTheJaw · 05/11/2021 11:00

@TempsPerdu

But above all it gets me that its framed as a moral duty of a 4/5 year old to do an invasive distressing invasive medical test because otherwise parents are 'selfish' rather than there being some self reflection about those saying it and how its all about their concerns without thought to the child

Hear hear RTB. One of the most insidious and depressing aspects of the pandemic has been the moral panic around children, who have been othered and scapegoated throughout.

The attitude of some posters on here towards children has been positively Victorian - essentially chattels with no agency who uncomplainingly have things done to them.

It's grotesque. Utterly grotesque.
vinoandbrie · 05/11/2021 11:31

Just don’t do it.

Fundays12 · 05/11/2021 11:45

It’s advised they can’t force it. I test my kids if they have had close contact with someone who has Covid or have symptoms. If my LA asked for more I would ignore it.