Original antigenic sin

[morticiamarkle]

Who knows what this is, and should we be worried about it in the context of vaccines?

If people don't think it's a concern, would you care to put my mind at rest? I'm seeing a lot about it lately

Thanks

@Mosky

They've seen that people are vaccinated don't produce antibodies to the nucleocapsid protein, after post vaccination viral infection.

Totally untrue pro covid bollocks.

I had two vaccines, then covid.
Before covid I had antibody tests which showed I was positive for S antibodies from the vaccine.

After covid I had an antibody test which shows I have S (spike) antobdies from the vaccine and ALSO N antibodies from infection.

I have had these tests since February as part of a research study into antibodies.

Then why do the UKHSA reference it?

You are a sample size of 1. I think they have n>1 in their report. At least I should hope so.

@winterisaroundthecorner

It really doesn't make sense what's happening in UK now, or any other countries, if the vaccine made it worse for you, does it?

Instead of reading and believing all those anti-vaxx stuff, open your eyes and see the truth?

Oh really? Who has had most vaccines? Israel Who has one of the highest rates of infection per million? Israel

My eyes and my mind are open. Are yours?

[quote everythingthelighttouches]Yanaji

It is true that this has been raised as a theoretical possibility but this is now really old news.

The prevailing thought in the relevant scientific fields is that it isn’t an issue for coronaviruses and there is less room for it to mutate to avoid antibody responses from vaccination.

Here’s a great, balanced, very readable article from an excellent scientific journalist in a reputable publication .

www.statnews.com/2021/04/16/next-generation-covid-19-vaccines-are-supposed-to-be-better-some-experts-worry-they-could-be-worse/[/quote]
Stat is a great publication. This article would have reassured me back in April when it was written. It's balanced & thoughtful.

Sadly though, real world evidence suggests it is not ageing well. We have to respond to the emerging data. Not stuck our fingers in our ears & hope for the best.

After the UKHSA mentioned it (obliquely) in their week 42 report.

Can't see anything of the sort @morticiamarkle? Where do you mean?

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1027511/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-42.pdf

Then why do the UKHSA reference it?You are a sample size of 1. I think they have n>1 in their report. At least I should hope so.
It's not referenced at all though?

Wow, would you look at that. All wide eyed, I don’t understaaaaaand please set my mind at rest, to a virtual authority on the subject in two posts.

Didn’t see that coming.

Biologist & immunologist blogs picked up on it. I heard an analyst ask about it on GSK earnings call yesterday (and get a non answer for his trouble)

@morticiamarkle

Could you link these blogs so actual information and references could be assessed? Or name any of the biologists and immunlogists making these claims?

I, too, spend my downtime listening to GSK earnings calls which coincidentally refer to the thing I’m pretending I didn’t know about two days ago but am suddenly an expert on today.

@Mosky

They've seen that people are vaccinated don't produce antibodies to the nucleocapsid protein, after post vaccination viral infection.

Totally untrue pro covid bollocks.

I had two vaccines, then covid.
Before covid I had antibody tests which showed I was positive for S antibodies from the vaccine.

After covid I had an antibody test which shows I have S (spike) antobdies from the vaccine and ALSO N antibodies from infection.

I have had these tests since February as part of a research study into antibodies.

I have both antibodies from infection and supposedly from vaccination. Except I haven't actually had the vaccine .

Like antigen testing, antibody tests don't have 100% senitivity and specificity @kowari

It sounds like you had a false positive. Would be interesting to see if you got the same result again.

I had two previous tests, September 2020 (lateral flow style) and June 2021 (tube sent off) and they were both positive but this recent one is the only one that mentioned infection and vaccination.

@Yanaji

Ahhh yes the wonderful death and infection case predictions that have been sooooo correct all the way through

The death predictions haven't been far from the mark. 140,000 deaths and that's with roll out vaccines. Peru has had the equivalent of 400,000 deaths scaled up to the U.K. population.

Oh really?
Who has had most vaccines? Israel
Who has one of the highest rates of infection per million? Israel

See, this is total misinformation. Israel is nowhere near the most vaccinated country. Their vaccination rate of people who had 2 doses is only 65.11%. Less than UK. And before you start saying they don't consider fully vaccinated unless you had boosters, this data only includes 1st and 2nd doses.
ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

@kowari the vaccine antibody is antibodies to the spike protein. You can get them from natural infection too.

[quote JS87]@kowari the vaccine antibody is antibodies to the spike protein. You can get them from natural infection too.[/quote]
Oh okay, it's just the way the notification was worded, why couldn't they just say that!?

Also would be interested in seeing these blogs from immunologists and biologists stating that vaccination causes a worsened immune response after infection @morticiamarkle

@Hotcoffee10

Yes I think we should be concerned about this. Might not be a problem but seems at least plausible. It would be nice to think virologists and immunologists would look into it with an open mind but sadly they are just as susceptible to cognitive bias as everyone else and at the moment people perceived to be vaccine critical are not going to get funding.

I don't really understand why you think this.

It was assessed in pre-clinical trials, there have been numerous studies that evaluate immune response after infection in those who have been vaccinated versus those who have not.

at the moment people perceived to be vaccine critical are not going to get funding.
Hasn't stopped numerous anti-vaccine groups from spreading their misinformation though. Genuine scientists are involved in assessing th risks of vaccination and have gained various grants and funding to assess this from an unbiased point of view.

Obviously if you go in claiming "vaccines destroy your immune system" or inhibit the immune response after infection, you're unlikely to secure funding given that there is no plausible rationale or precendence for this happening, and it reveals you do not know very much about the immune system nor vaccines.

The paper doesn't say no anti-N antibodies, it says "fewer".
Research has also shown that milder infections produce less antibodies than someone who is really ill. (as you would probably expect)
Give that the vaccine tends to prevent severe infection, it follows that less antibodies will be produced.
As someone on here has said - antibodies are only part of the story and what really matters are your memory T & B cells.
I also contracted covid after vaccination (a mild case) and as part of a trial, it was shown that I have antibodies to the N protein. I don't know how many but it is obviously more than someone who has never had covid.