Are people dying OF covid or WITH covid?

[LittleMo234]

As the stats are 'deaths within 28 days of a positive test' we'll never know will we?

I mean, if I tested positive today and got hit by a bus next week that would count as a covid death wouldn't it?

Even with the 'excess deaths' figures that doesn't really help as there can be variations in all kinds of illnesses, especially as we've not been outside to build up immunity for the last 18 months!

Just musing really...

Equally people are dying of covid after the 28 days and not being recorded as dying of covid.

Might go some way to explain the excess deaths.

And some of the people dying of Covid will also have had false negative PCRs and won’t be included in the statistics.

The stats page also has a figure for deaths with COVID on the death certificate, if that helps? It is a higher number than the 'within 28 days' number.

coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths

Only people still talking about things like this is the people in certain category.
Who really cares? If your loved one died, you want to find out why.
Say if your loved one had covid, survived but had died because of kidney failure because of kidney damage caused by a virus after 3 months. Will you be disputing it was because of covid or kidney failure, rather than just mourning?

It is a bit "woolly" as a statistic.

If it's your job to make decisions reliant on statistics it is an issue isn't it?

Cause of death isn't always obvious or easy to determine.

When my grandmother died, the doctor who examined her to confirm her death said it could have been any one of about eight different conditions that she had, or a combination of several of them. He had a reasonable idea, based on her medical history and her last few weeks, but he did go to some lengths to explain that it wasn't an exact science.

It's not uncommon for more than one condition or illness to be put on a death certificate if there's uncertainty about the precise cause. Sometimes there isn't a precise cause. And a post mortem will only be carried out if a death is unexpected, violent, unnatural or suspicious.

That's why this of/with thing keeps going around. It's not a conspiracy to obfuscate figures or mislead people; it's just that death isn't always simple, especially with people who are elderly and/or with numerous health conditions.

Certainly several UNVACCINATED people a day are dying OF Covid at my local hospital.

I really wouldn't bother musing on MN about anything covid related that isn't full of doom and gloom. I don't think it's allowed.

Yeah the 28 day figure is just not accurate. Some are dying months after initial infection with various complications probably related to COVID but the deaths will be recorded as Stroke etc.
www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210423/covid-study-deaths-months-after-infection

Or this
doi.org/10.1136/bmj.n693

Well it's always going to be a bit vague isn't it?
E.g. if you are very elderly, with many comorbidities, in hospital for your heart and catch covid. If you die is it your heart or covid? It's impossible to say, potentially both. Potentially covid added that additional stressor that meant you couldn't recover.

Even if someone is in say a car accident with covid, if they are taken to hospital and later die, would they have survived without covid? Maybe. Again was covid an additional stressor on your lungs and heart that meant you didn't recover?

Yes if they have a massively traumatic event like being hit by a bus, and die on scene then it's obviously the bus. But this is rare. Most deaths don't happen like that, and so it's really impossible to say fully. It's always going to be a best guess, there will be clear cut cases, but there will be situations where its not clear cut

I swear there's been more threads speculating about being hit by a bus after a Covid diagnosis than there has been people hit by a bus with or without covid since the beginning of time.

If you read the excellent ongoing "data" threads you get some insight into the reliability of the statistics.

I presume you are suggesting that the death rate from covid is less than the official figure?
In fact it is probably significantly higher because many people who die of covid last longer than 28 days.

Or are you suggesting that it doesn't count if they have other health conditions that make them more susceptable to covid? Perhaps you think they aren't worthwhile counting. People like me who live perfectly normal lives and would expect to reach a ripe old age but have an underlying condition that covid could exacerbate?

I think sadly in many cases ill people and elderly died a lot sooner because of covid.

The problem I have with this whole 28 days thing is when people compare the U.K. death rate to other countries who don't use the same measures to calculate covid deaths. Don't forget from April to August 2020 there was no time limit in England so if you had tested positive it was recorded as a covid death even 60 days later.