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LF test and PCR test

94 replies

Yellowmellow2 · 10/10/2021 14:14

Positive LF test yesterday. Went for PCR. Has just come back negative. No symptoms. I assume I just carry on my merry way and ignore the LF result?

OP posts:
BlanketPiggy · 10/10/2021 15:29

It's so strange and concerning It's happened that way for you twice.

lonelyplanet · 10/10/2021 15:33

This seems to be happening quite a bit at the moment.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/09/negative-pcr-test-covid-symptoms-self-isolate

profpoopsnagle · 10/10/2021 15:44

Have you tried doing just up the nose on an old style throat/up nose test?

Yellowmellow2 · 10/10/2021 16:01

@profpoopsnagle

Have you tried doing just up the nose on an old style throat/up nose test?
Oooo, no! Phoned 119 and they said PCR basically trumps LF so can assume I’m negative.
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TacoTues · 10/10/2021 16:02

Every flowflex test I do has a faint second line.

Negative on any other LFT and negative PCRs.

I don't know if the fault is with the flowflex tests to be honest.

Yellowmellow2 · 10/10/2021 16:07

@TacoTues

Every flowflex test I do has a faint second line.

Negative on any other LFT and negative PCRs.

I don't know if the fault is with the flowflex tests to be honest.

Oh that is useful to know. Think that may be the case then, although the line is fairly pronounced. Older NHS tests not showing a line.
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GruntBaby · 10/10/2021 16:14

Oooo, no! Phoned 119 and they said PCR basically trumps LF so can assume I’m negative.

That's because 119 is following standard guidance, which would normally be true... except there's building evidence that there is either a problem with a regional PCR test lab OR a new variant that is not being picked up on PCR (like the Brittany variant before Delta came along). This IS being investigated but 119 guidance has not yet caught up.

We know numerous cases in our school and own household where one person has confirmed PCR Covid and has infected others in house and class, but the others have tested positive on lateral flow then negative on PCR.

To be safe, and avoid unwittingly infecting others, perhaps keep doing lateral flows and isolate until they come back clear, which takes about a week. We followed 119 guidance to the letter, which resulted in Covid spreading like welfare and hospitalisation, and our local public health officials are now advising to treat repeat positive LFT as a confirmed case, even if the PCR is negative.

Yellowmellow2 · 10/10/2021 16:20

I think that the extra confusion though, is it’s only the Flowflex that’s coming up positive, not the older NHS LF tests?

OP posts:
BluebellsGreenbells · 10/10/2021 16:32

which resulted in Covid spreading like welfare

That’s a new one!

BluebellsGreenbells · 10/10/2021 16:35

A different thread but here’s the advice that’s local to them

LF test and PCR test
GruntBaby · 10/10/2021 16:43

Flowflex has higher sensitivity than Innova LFTs which means it correctly identifies more of the people who have Covid. Flowflex and Innova have almost identical specificity, which means the likelihood of false positives is about the same.

Therefore I think there's more chance the Flowflex is picking up true positives which aren't being picked up by the less sensitive Innova tests.

(Scientist - though I do have Covid brain fog at present so I've had to read the statistics a few times to make sure I'm reading them right.)

GruntBaby · 10/10/2021 16:45

BluebellsGreenbells
Spreading like welfare... Covid brain fog here. Wildfire, obviously. If only welfare could spread as quickly as Covid.

Yellowmellow2 · 10/10/2021 16:59

@GruntBaby

Flowflex has higher sensitivity than Innova LFTs which means it correctly identifies more of the people who have Covid. Flowflex and Innova have almost identical specificity, which means the likelihood of false positives is about the same.

Therefore I think there's more chance the Flowflex is picking up true positives which aren't being picked up by the less sensitive Innova tests.

(Scientist - though I do have Covid brain fog at present so I've had to read the statistics a few times to make sure I'm reading them right.)

Interesting. Still none the wiser then, about whether I do or do not have COVID and whether to go to work! I’ve sent off another PCR
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Yellowmellow2 · 10/10/2021 17:00

I thought PCR was the most sensitive and accurate of the three 🤷‍♀️

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Zippy1510 · 10/10/2021 17:02

Consecutive positive lateral flows (not a one off) means it’s very likely you have covid. There’s an issue at the moment with lots of false negative PCRs. I would act like you have it. I’m a microbiologist.

Peanut0583 · 10/10/2021 17:03

119 told us to carry on (send kids to school) after we all had positive LFTs but negative PCRs. We all then became symptomatic so ignored and ordered postal home PCRs and they were all positive for all of us! Personally I would re test as it seems the PCR only picked it up 5 days after the LFTs did! Its a known issue atm and it’s being investigated by public Health England!

Whinge · 10/10/2021 17:06

Still none the wiser then, about whether I do or do not have COVID and whether to go to work! I’ve sent off another PCR

As annoying as it is I would go with the assumption that you have Covid. Working in a school there's a good chance you've recently been in contact with a postive case. It's better to have a few days off and monitor the situation, than risk spreading it to other staff and the wider community.

Yellowmellow2 · 10/10/2021 17:08

Ok. Have sent off another PCR and will perhaps send another in a couple of days. I now have a sore throat but think that’s because I’ve done four LF tests and two PCR tests in the last 24 hours 😂😂

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GruntBaby · 10/10/2021 18:20

@Yellowmellow2
I thought PCR was the most sensitive and accurate of the three 🤷‍♀️

I know, this is a nightmare to get your head around. I'll see if I can explain...

Yes, you're right - normally a PCR will pick up cases earlier and later than the LFT, which tends to catch cases only at their peak. PCR basically analyses RNA (genetic material), amplifying tiny amounts over numerous cycles of the machine until there's enough to measure. Whereas LFTs pick up viral proteins, rather than the genetic material.

It's exceedingly unlikely that a PCR will get a false positive. However PCRs can get false negatives, often due to poor sampling technique (you need to swab high enough and get viral material on swab).
LFTs vary by brand as you've seen above, but false positives are still very rare. False negatives are a lot more common on LFT than on PCR, (so it's not safe to get a negative LFT and assume you're clear to go and hug grandma), but if you have a positive LFT you are exceedingly likely to be infected, AND highly infectious at that moment. IIRC you are then advised to get PCR confirmation in part because a certain % of PCR results are analysed more fully to check for new and dangerous variants. The UK system is pretty good at picking these new variants up.

So normally you would get a positive LFT and then it would be confirmed by a positive PCR. What is happening now is that it is highly unusual (and suspect) for there to be so many positive LFTs followed by negative PCRs as we are seeing at present. It indicates a problem with the LFTs or a problem with the PCRs. The contextual and anecdotal evidence I've seen seems to indicate that it is less likely to be an issue with the LFTs (many of these strange cases eventually get picked up by PCR, or by PCR in a different lab, or there's a direct transmission chain to a PCR positive case).

So... it seems at the moment more likely to be a PCR issue. The most likely suspects would be:

  • A problem at a PCR testing lab, e.g. a machine not properly calibrated, or set up wrong for example. Investigators should be checking all this.
  • A new variant the current PCR tests aren't picking up.

It's years since I've had anything to do with PCRs, so this is conjecture but if a new variant is sufficiently different in its RNA, then the PCR machines just looking for yes/no might be missing some new variants. Another possibility is that, given lots of different PCR tests and machines are used by different labs, some labs' machines could be able to pick up the new variant, and other labs can't. A new variant being missed is still unlikely (because the PCR machines are looking for at the bit of the virus code that tends not to evolve much, rather than testing the bit that keeps changing). However there IS precedent for a new variant evading PCR and this happened with the Brittany variant. You'd only be able to pick up cases by realising there was an issue and then looking into the genetic code in more detail and discovering a new variant.

Even if it's a variant, the virus could still be producing similar enough proteins to be picked up by the LFTs - and most LFT types look for the most stable, unchanging protein bits.

So PCR and LFT are 2 different tests measuring two different things. If Covid changes enough in one way but not as much in another, that could explain why LFT is still picking it up, but PCR is not.

The situation is new and rapidly evolving, so we're in the period where the cause of this discrepancy is being investigated and guidance could change as a result (and already is changing in some places as a stop gap). If it's a lab issue they can fix that. If it's a new variant that is evading the current PCR tests then they would be likely to send out guidance to the labs and the labs will adjust their testing protocols and we can go back to relying on PCR confirmations. But all that will take time to figure out. Hence the current confusion.

Hope that makes sense! My brain is really quite foggy so not sure whether I've been able to explain it clearly.

Yellowmellow2 · 10/10/2021 18:26

Thanks @GruntBaby. Very interesting. My only other confusion though is why is the Flowflax positive (x2) and the other type of LF negative (x2)? Does the Flowflax trump the PCR and the Innova?

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GruntBaby · 10/10/2021 18:43

The Flowflex is more likely to pick up a true positive than the Innova LFT. So if you have Covid (of any type) the Flowflex result is probably the one to go by. In your case I would believe the Flowflex result.

Onto the next issue -
The Flowflex and PCR sensitivity and specificity are actually getting quite similar. However, if, as suspected, there IS currently a variant or lab testing issue for the PCR, then yes you could say that at present it would be safest to assume that the Flowflex trumps the PCR. I would also suggest that a positive Innova LFT should trump the PCR at present too.

Given the experience we are having locally, and what I know scientifically, statistically and logically, my advice would be to isolate if you can. Obviously that's not so easy if you need the PCR result to get the government pay out or for your work to let you work from home, but if it IS possible to treat it as a confirmed positive and isolate, then it would best to do so.

3 weeks ago we first encountered these testing issues and followed 119 advice and didn't isolate, and I now really regret that because I know for a fact we've infected at least 8 people directly, probably a lot more. Also, we only got infected in the first place because of someone else we know encountering these exact same testing issues and being given advice to ignore the LFTs. I've been seriously ill as a result.

Yellowmellow2 · 10/10/2021 18:49

Gosh. So you had problems with testing three weeks ago? How long before you then got symptoms? Sorry to hear you’ve been so sick.

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BlanketPiggy · 10/10/2021 18:51

@GruntBaby thank you so much for taking the time to write out your posts, and in such an accessible way too.

PaleGreenGhost · 10/10/2021 18:53

@Piapiano

Technically yes but a false positive on LFT is very rare. There are a lot of reports of false negative PCRs at the moment. Personally I would assume its covid. You can do another PCR again in a few days to check.
This.

Same happened to someone in my family.

3 positive lateral flows (from different packs) but negative pcr. Did another lateral flow, positive again, so re booked a pcr which then came back positive.

Assume there is a test quality or lab fuck up somewhere.

Whinge · 10/10/2021 18:57

[quote BlanketPiggy]@GruntBaby thank you so much for taking the time to write out your posts, and in such an accessible way too.[/quote]
Another one who would like to say thank you. Hopefully they'll help others in the same situation, and could prevent further spread.

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