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Original poster

Government Refuses to Release Minutes of Meeting in Which JVCI Decided Not to Recommend Jabbing Healthy Teens

166 replies

Sagaaaats · 09/10/2021 08:54

^The government has refused to release the minutes of the meeting in which its vaccine advisory committee decided not to recommend vaccinating all 12-15 year olds against covid-19.1

The UK Health Security Agency, which replaced Public Health England, rejected a freedom of information request for the document on the grounds that it intended to publish the minutes “in due course.”

The agency argued that it was in the public interest to withhold the information until it could be released in a “simultaneous, coordinated manner” and that disclosing the minutes before they were finalised could “result in a false impression of the contents of the meeting.” The decision is being appealed.

On 3 September the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) said that it would not be recommending universal vaccination for 12-15 year olds because although the health benefits of vaccination were “marginally greater than the potential known harms,” the margin of benefit was considered too small.2 The committee did not explain what factors its conclusion was based on, and neither the minutes nor the data behind the decision have been made public.3

The JCVI asked ministers to seek further advice from the UK’s chief medical officers on the wider potential benefits of vaccination. The government later (13 September) accepted the chief medical officers’ recommendation to vaccinate all 12-15 year olds on the basis of an assessment that included transmission in schools and the effect on children’s education.4

In a letter dated 5 October academics from Independent SAGE wrote to the JCVI highlighting the fact that, despite the committee’s own policy stating that draft minutes would be published within six weeks of each meeting, the last publicly available minutes were from February 2021.5

They urged the JCVI to “abide by its code of practice and be open and transparent through rapid publishing of all agendas, supporting papers and minutes,” arguing that “public confidence in vaccination programmes is assisted by clear and consistent processes and messaging.”

They added, “In that spirit, we wish to have a public assurance from JCVI that all future considerations of covid-19 vaccines, including the extension of vaccination to children under 12 years of age, will be conducted openly and transparently.”^

www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2452?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_term=hootsuite&utm_content=sme&utm_campaign=usage

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 09/10/2021 17:18

Bit late seeing as most of them have already caught it noble. And it looks like infection gives broader protection against variants and is durable so it could be the best thing for them, and others.

noblegiraffe · 09/10/2021 17:21

It is a bit late for the ones who have caught it already, bumbley. One particularly awful news story springs to mind that suggests it's not always the best thing for them.

bumbleymummy · 09/10/2021 17:29

Yep. Some awful news stories about the vaccine spring to mind too.

riveted1 · 09/10/2021 17:29

@bumbleymummy

Bit late seeing as most of them have already caught it noble. And it looks like infection gives broader protection against variants and is durable so it could be the best thing for them, and others.
It has been explained time and time again that is not a situation where you either have vaccine induced or infection induced immunity.

When you are vaccinated, the immunity you have is then "boosted" by an exposure of infection of coronavirus.

Being vaccinated does not result in less robust immunity and means you have a far lower chance of getting ill, being hospitalised or having long term effects, as well as reduced transmission to others.

riveted1 · 09/10/2021 17:30

@bumbleymummy

Yep. Some awful news stories about the vaccine spring to mind too.
Except it's quite obvious that adverse events and deaths caused by vaccination are far lower than those caused by coronavirus (in teens too), so I'm not sure what the point of this comment is.
noblegiraffe · 09/10/2021 17:40

The point of the comment is to try to suggest there are comparable stories in children, riveted while being vague enough to not make any false claims that might be deleted.

Languagethoughts · 09/10/2021 17:41

covid.joinzoe.com/post/do-i-need-a-covid-vaccine-if-ive-had-covid
Some interesting research here on the combined effect of having Covid then getting vaccinated (in adults). Those who have Covid and then get double jabbed have a higher level of protection than unvaccinated people who have had Covid. People who are double jabbed and have not had Covid are better protected than those who have had Covid and are unvaccinated.

bumbleymummy · 09/10/2021 17:43

@riveted1 so far, natural immunity appears to be more durable and provide broader protection against variants. Given that children are low risk and the benefit of the vaccine vs the risk to them is so marginal, why risk it if they’ve already had the virus.

bumbleymummy · 09/10/2021 17:46

@riveted1 I don’t know. Ask noble what the point is in bringing up extremely rare cases where otherwise apparently healthy teens die from covid. I only mentioned that there have been tragic cases where young people have died from vaccination in response to that post of hers.

bumbleymummy · 09/10/2021 17:49

@Languagethoughts iirc a recent Zoe study showed that there are fewer cases of reinfection in people who had the virus compared to breakthrough cases in people who had the vaccine.

noblegiraffe · 09/10/2021 17:50

bumbley can you provide a link to a story about a child dying from covid vaccination in the U.K. please?

Languagethoughts · 09/10/2021 17:53

[quote bumbleymummy]@riveted1 so far, natural immunity appears to be more durable and provide broader protection against variants. Given that children are low risk and the benefit of the vaccine vs the risk to them is so marginal, why risk it if they’ve already had the virus.[/quote]
What is your source for suggesting natural immunity provides more durable/provides better protection against variants? This seems to contradict the findings of the Zoe app study I quoted above which found that vaccinated people were better protected against Covid than unvaccinated people who had had Covid. (Those who had Covid and then got vaccinated had better protection than either of the other two groups.)

herecomesthsun · 09/10/2021 18:04

@bumbleymummy

Bit late seeing as most of them have already caught it noble. And it looks like infection gives broader protection against variants and is durable so it could be the best thing for them, and others.
Presumably it wasn't the best thing for the 10 or so children who died of cvid last month,
Languagethoughts · 09/10/2021 18:04

@bumbleymummy Unless you are referring to a different Zoe study to the one I've quoted (in which case I'd be interested to see a link), I think you have misunderstood. The Zoe study found that people who had had Covid and subsequently got fully vaccinated were better protected than fully vaccinated people who had not previously had Covid. But vaccinated people who had not had Covid were better protected than unvaccinated people who had.

bumbleymummy · 09/10/2021 18:06

@noblegiraffe

bumbley can you provide a link to a story about a child dying from covid vaccination in the U.K. please?
Why does it have to be a child to be tragic? What about young women with families who died? We’ve only just started vaccinating children.

And just to be clear here, you’re the one who brought up a very rare case of a healthy child dying from COVID. I haven’t tried to use rare instances of vaccine deaths as part of my argument against vaccinating children. I don’t think rare cases are particular helpful on either side of the discussion tbh.

bumbleymummy · 09/10/2021 18:18

@Languagethoughts several studies showing 9-12 months of protection after infection and low incidence of reinfection compared to studies showing waning immunity within months after the vaccine and high incidence of infection. Thankfully the vaccine is still reducing the risk of serious illness and death in the most vulnerable groups though.

BewareTheLibrarians · 09/10/2021 18:20

@bumbleymummy

Yep. Some awful news stories about the vaccine spring to mind too.
I haven’t tried to use rare instances of vaccine deaths as part of my argument against vaccinating children.

That’s not you in that quote then?

noblegiraffe · 09/10/2021 18:20

Why does it have to be a child to be tragic

That’s a no then. It has to be a child here because we are discussing vaccinating children and you are doing your usual spiel of playing up the benefits of catching covid while ignoring any possible downside. Yes, the death of a child from covid is rare, but you blithely asserting that it’s better for kids to catch covid than be vaccinated isn’t true in their case, is it?

You ignore Beware when they bring up their child suffering from long covid too.

MargaretThursday · 09/10/2021 18:31

According to the office of national statistics there are 9 deaths in the UK that involved the vaccine (meaning the vaccine contributed to the death), of which 5 had the vaccine as the underlying cause (meaning the vaccine initiated the chain of events directly leading to the death). For these deaths, there was evidence to suggest that the vaccine played a part in the chain of events that led to the death.

That's 9 deaths out of 49 million having had one jab (and 45 million have had their second).
As opposed to nearly 140 000 people who have died of covid (or over 160 000 with covid as a cause on the death certificate)

bumbleymummy · 09/10/2021 18:32

@BewareTheLibrarians yep, in response to noble’s post just above it:

“It is a bit late for the ones who have caught it already, bumbley. One particularly awful news story springs to mind”

I haven’t used it as part of my argument, I mentioned it in response to her comment. As I said, I don’t think rare cases are particularly helpful on either side of the discussion.

@noblegiraffe terrible argument. One death doesn’t justify vaccinating an entire population of healthy children, many of whom are already immune and could suffer unnecessary side effects. And, if you read back just a few posts, you’ll see that my comment about it being the best thing for them was irt children who have had the virus and have recovered with immunity which appears to be more durable and broader against variants than the vaccine. Pretty sure you know that already though.

bumbleymummy · 09/10/2021 18:34

@MargaretThursday I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the vaccine hasn’t saved more lives than it caused. I’m certainly not.

seb342 · 09/10/2021 18:35

If they had nothing to hide they'd release them, the freedom of information act is there for this very reason.

noblegiraffe · 09/10/2021 18:36

terrible argument. One death doesn’t justify vaccinating an entire population of healthy children

I haven’t argued that it is. However it is reasonable to bring up in the face of your repeated assertions that catching covid is better for kids than being vaccinated. And it’s not just one death is it?

Even the JCVI said the health benefits outweigh the risks for children by a small margin.

noblegiraffe · 09/10/2021 18:37

could suffer unnecessary side effects.

What about the kids who haven’t yet had covid. Would you recommend getting them vaccinated to avoid the unnecessary side effects of covid?

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