Natural Immunity and children

[Momsincharge]

I just read this article in the Washington Post, a paper of record in the USA.

www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/15/natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate/

It points out that having had COVID is 27 times better protection than the vaccine.

It made me wonder if it would be in young people’s best interests not to be vaccinated, but to contract COVID while they are young and strong so that they develop life long immunity and to save the vaccines for the elderly and the vulnerable who will have no chance to contract Covid at a very low risk.

I’ve got my tin hat on.

Catching covid to protect against covid. That makes sense

Well, if it’s going to be endemic for the rest of our lives wouldn’t laying down the strongest immunity you can while you are young and at very low risk to do so be a favour to your elderly self?

Well that's the approach the NHS takes towards chicken pox.

It's up to the parent or older child whether they want to try that with a more novel virus. Who knows how it will pan out?

I thought natural immunity meant something else entirely.

It’s unlikely to give lifelong immunity due to changing variants. It’s not the measles.

I agree op

Of course it’s better to get immunity naturally when you are young and can easily handle it

But we are in such times that saying that is heresy

That article discusses a non-peer reviewed study of adults, not children. Plus, the the study concludes with the best combination may be natural immunity with one vaccine dose. So not only was the article not discussing children, it wasn't discussing natural immunity alone

Where has this idea of 'lifelong immunity' come from given that we know people can be reinfected?

@Momsincharge

I just read this article in the Washington Post, a paper of record in the USA.

www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/15/natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate/

It points out that having had COVID is 27 times better protection than the vaccine.

It made me wonder if it would be in young people’s best interests not to be vaccinated, but to contract COVID while they are young and strong so that they develop life long immunity and to save the vaccines for the elderly and the vulnerable who will have no chance to contract Covid at a very low risk.

I’ve got my tin hat on.

Lifelong immunity?

Catching covid naturaly doesn't even give immunity for 6 months. We have children of all ages catching it repeatedly within the same school year - and it seems to be worse the second or third round too

Whatever source you are using, is clearly the worst kind of crap. They are either very stupid, or deliberately lying about this 27 figure.

At least, when they are so blatantly wrong it is easy to spot!

Quite simply no.

"natural" immunity is far weaker and much shorter lived than vaccination

@Orangejuicemarathoner do you have evidence that these sources are wrong or just your observations?
I think it makes sense that natural immunity may be stronger as you develop antibodies and T cells to more coronavirus proteins than just the spike protein.

Due to the mutations to the delta virus the vaccines are giving pretty poor protection against symptomatic delta. Yes some children maybe are being reinfected with delta who previously had other strains but you don’t know they would have been more protected if they’d been vaccinated. Plenty of people who have been double vaccinated are feeling pretty poorly when catching delta.
The fact the vaccine is to the original strain means it is less effective against delta.
I think it’s probably still unclear whether natural immunity or vaccine immunity is better. For adults certainly the vaccine will prevent against the risk of serious disease. For those with young children I expect catching covid naturally many times whilst young will provide the best protection as they get older.
If our vaccines were keeping up with the mutations it might be a different story.
For me personally I feel that if I catch delta after double vaccination I will be more protected against future strains which will might be vaccine resistant than if I don’t catch delta. Of course that comes with the risk I might feel pretty poorly with delta or get long covid.

Despite what scientists say it doesn’t seem it is possible at this stage in the pandemic that vaccines can be altered to match the variants. We are still using the original strain for the vaccine when we have gone through alpha and delta. When the whole world needs vaccinating I suspect it’s quite hard to switch to producing new vaccines quickly and so having been infected with delta is more likely to keep me safe in the long run against variants than not having it. If a vaccine resistant strain emerges the alternative is hiding away until a new vaccine is ready. Those whom have been infected naturally may find themselves more protected.

[quote JS87]@Orangejuicemarathoner do you have evidence that these sources are wrong or just your observations?
I think it makes sense that natural immunity may be stronger as you develop antibodies and T cells to more coronavirus proteins than just the spike protein.

Due to the mutations to the delta virus the vaccines are giving pretty poor protection against symptomatic delta. Yes some children maybe are being reinfected with delta who previously had other strains but you don’t know they would have been more protected if they’d been vaccinated. Plenty of people who have been double vaccinated are feeling pretty poorly when catching delta.
The fact the vaccine is to the original strain means it is less effective against delta.
I think it’s probably still unclear whether natural immunity or vaccine immunity is better. For adults certainly the vaccine will prevent against the risk of serious disease. For those with young children I expect catching covid naturally many times whilst young will provide the best protection as they get older.
If our vaccines were keeping up with the mutations it might be a different story.
For me personally I feel that if I catch delta after double vaccination I will be more protected against future strains which will might be vaccine resistant than if I don’t catch delta. Of course that comes with the risk I might feel pretty poorly with delta or get long covid.

Despite what scientists say it doesn’t seem it is possible at this stage in the pandemic that vaccines can be altered to match the variants. We are still using the original strain for the vaccine when we have gone through alpha and delta. When the whole world needs vaccinating I suspect it’s quite hard to switch to producing new vaccines quickly and so having been infected with delta is more likely to keep me safe in the long run against variants than not having it. If a vaccine resistant strain emerges the alternative is hiding away until a new vaccine is ready. Those whom have been infected naturally may find themselves more protected.[/quote]

The above can be summarised as "What I think I know more about than than scientists and/or virologists". Oh, and while challenging someone else about their sources and observations.

But you can get Covid again. As PP have said, catching it doesn't stop you getting it EVER again - it will lessen your chances of getting it for a while, but you'd be taking a risk contracting an illness that you could catch again in 6-12 months time.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20210915/Natural-SARS-CoV-2-infection-induces-more-durable-immunity-than-vaccination.aspx

The immunity from a covid infection is indeed longer lasting than that from the vaccine, not just in children but in adults too.

Catching covid naturaly doesn't even give immunity for 6 months.

Have you got evidence for this statement?

This is not what studies I've been seeing have concluded

@SpringheelJack

But you can get Covid again. As PP have said, catching it doesn't stop you getting it EVER again - it will lessen your chances of getting it for a while, but you'd be taking a risk contracting an illness that you could catch again in 6-12 months time.

Reinfection is very low though?

@12:28Orangejuicemarathoner

Sorry but I don't think you understand the human immune system very well. I think you're talking about circulating antibodies rather than immunity which involves a lot more than antibodies.
Even so, many people have been found to have circulating antibodies 18 months post infection, much longer than the vaccine gives.

Of course natural immunity is better than this vaccine.

@noblegiraffe

Catching covid to protect against covid. That makes sense

I'm not sure if this would be true of covid but I have a natural immunity to measles as my brother had measles when I was 6 weeks old and I still had immunity from my mother . I have never had measles. Same happened with my son was 6 weeks old and my DD caught measles , DS1 , now 46 , has never had measles .
My theory is , if the mother is vaccinated and the baby comes into contact in the first few weeks of life with covid , then could the baby have a natural immunity?

But I know someone who caught covid twice? 11 months apart. Both times not moderate, but how is that natural immunity then as the antibodies gained form the first infection, obviously didn’t stop him catching it second time?

Meant to write both times he had it moderately, like a winter cold.

@2boysand1princess

But I know someone who caught covid twice? 11 months apart. Both times not moderate, but how is that natural immunity then as the antibodies gained form the first infection, obviously didn’t stop him catching it second time?

The initial strain was different to alpha and delta strains, research is showing that currently if alpha or delta then antibodies are offering good protection against re-infection by delta.

Nobody has a crystal ball into variants though and everyone's immune system is different to how long antibodies last. But re-infection rates are still pretty low.
The general thinking average is 6-8 months but many have been found to be way past that.

@noblegiraffe

Catching covid to protect against covid. That makes sense

Makes sense to me.

I caught covid 18 months ago. Havent caught it since[yes I know some can catch it twice]. Have gone out of my way to expose myself to it since.
I dont know the science, but I am 60. If I can be exposed to it quite a lot now, hopefully when I am 70 and my age is starting to count against me, covid wise, I will have had enough exposure to be better protected. That is my theory, and what I am doing, anyway.
I have always tried to take as few medicines as possible. I am in excellent health.

@AlixandraTheGreat.
Just my opinion as an immunologist actually.

I actually said in my post we don’t know which is better. Vaccines often induce better immunity due to adjuvants etc included in the jabs which boost immune responses but the situation we now have is that the virus has mutated its spike protein since the vaccine was made. Therefore immunity to the other viral proteins as well from natural infection can only be a good thing is trying to protect against future variants.
Whether having covid itself is a good idea is another matter. However for those of us with children under 12 it seems inevitable

I think the best immunity comes from natural virus plus at least one vaccine shot.

We also don't know how long natural or vaccine immunity lasts yet.

Catching covid naturaly doesn't even give immunity for 6 months.

This is not the case.
There is no fully known duration yet. The data keeps changing based on antibody and immunity test results.

I still had virus acquired antibodies 7 months after having covid.
My colleague had virus acquired antibodies present 13-14 months after having covid, as did her partner (partner was a pcr confirmed case; colleague was an assumed case as testing wasn't routine or publicly available then. In fact about 7 or 8 colleges use have done the virus acquired anti body tests and ll those who tested positive for covid still have had antibodies present and all were 6 months + on.

The only ones I know who have been negative for antibodies are those who have never tested positive for covid.