Australia/New Zealand New Thread

[Kokeshi123]

www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/pandemic-australia-still-liberal-democracy/619940/

Intrastate travel within Australia is also severely restricted. And the government of South Australia, one of the country’s six states, developed and is now testing an app as Orwellian as any in the free world to enforce its quarantine rules. People in South Australia will be forced to download an app that combines facial recognition and geolocation. The state will text them at random times, and thereafter they will have 15 minutes to take a picture of their face in the location where they are supposed to be. Should they fail, the local police department will be sent to follow up in person. “We don’t tell them how often or when, on a random basis they have to reply within 15 minutes,” Premier Steven Marshall explained. “I think every South Australian should feel pretty proud that we are the national pilot for the home-based quarantine app.”

This is... really really disturbing, honestly.

I grew up admiring (and, let's be honest, envying) Australians because as a nation, they always came across as a down-to-earth, fearless lot who had a healthy skepticism of authority while also being basically very civic/community minded.

What's gone wrong?

And the ironic thing is that many of these developed countries that NZ graciously deferred to (if we are still talking about Pfizer), over-ordered supplies and are now doing various deals & swaps with other countries, likely at some considerable profit.

Altruism is an admirable trait, but, as with everything, the approach needs to be balanced, especially when you’re a government acting on behalf of your citizens.

@Blackbird2020

They do use this as the reason, yes

That a whole country will isolate itself from the rest of the world, plus risk the devastating consequences of an uncontrollable outbreak in an almost completely unvaccinated population, in order to help say, the combined cities of Milan and Berlin seems very odd.

NZ declining vaccines makes very very little difference to other countries - it’s population is so tiny!

We weren't looking at Europe. We were looking at India and Brazil. Before Delta, and with covid eliminated in NZ. I stand by our approach.

I still believe our government has handled this well. We're going into a new phase. We'll be 80 percent plus doubled vaxxed by Xmas and with a better understanding of how to manage and treat COVID. We won't be looking at death rates comparable to the UK. Hundreds of thousands of dead is beyond my comprehension.

Just because we managed the first phase well @Turangawaewae doesn’t mean the late vaccine roll out or the fact that nothing has been done to increase ICU capacity in 18 months is ok.

In fact it is more shameful because we had an early advantage and we squandered it.

P.S. we won’t be 80% double vaxxed by Christmas. We will likely be maybe 70% of total population double vaxxed.

We might get to 80% Vaccination as % of eligible population, which is how the Govt massages the stats to make them look better.

To achieve 80% double vaxxed of general population (how every other country except Australia measures it) we would need to achieve 100% vaccination of the eligible (12+) population.

Also we were never going to be looking at 100s of thousands dead.

Even the most dire modelling by TPM with no public health measures in place put us as 80,000. That was almost certainly far too high - even Shaun Hendy acknowledges that now.

Much maligned Sweden with no lockdowns and a population of 10 million has had 14,000 deaths

Even the UK, with a population 13x that of NZ has had 125k deaths which equates to under 10K for NZ.

The idea that the Govt has saved us from hundreds of thousands of NZers dying of Covid is preposterous.

Hundred of thousands have certainly been affected by ongoing lockdowns and enforced border separations though.

The death rate in the UK has been 2014 deaths per million. So NZ could have been looking at around 10,000 deaths.

What do people in NSW think about the new Premier and his accelerated opening?

Yes. Not “hundred of thousands of deaths”

We weren't looking at Europe. We were looking at India and Brazil

A cursory search on the internet will tell you that Brazil predominately uses AstraZeneca and Sinovac, whilst India uses predominantly AstraZeneca. As I said before, developing countries find it logistically difficult/too costly to use Pfizer and Moderna, the vaccines most of the developed world are using. I assume that Pfizer and Moderna are the ones NZ declined to order early on during the pandemic, when other developed countries were negotiating deals with these respective pharmaceutical companies.

So, as I said before, declining Pfizer/Moderna to allow for more supply to Brazil and India is simply a fictional narrative.

The most likely reason as to why NZ (and Australia) didn’t order the volume they needed earlier is cost.

Both these governments considered that their COVID situations were under control, and so didn’t want to negotiate for vaccines at a time when demand and the price point were extremely high. They probably made a financial decision to try to save their respective countries money by waiting a little longer to be able to negotiate a lower price once demand had settled.

In all fairness the budget required to purchase these vaccines would have been a key consideration, but that doesn’t sound as good to the electorate as “We wanted to give to those more in need”, given the current situations in both NZ and Oz.

I assume that Pfizer and Moderna are the ones NZ declined to order early on during the pandemic

Yes, it was Pfizer, and that early investment of course contributed to development of the existing mRna research into a workable vaccine, testing and manufacture - without early investment the project couldn't have moved forward.

Those Pfizer vaccines did help elsewhere - where deaths and cases were high and lockdown ongoing

Depending on timing

I get the anger though especially if people are in Auckland. Must be very tough to be ring fenced and suffering more than rest

Absolutely, those 5 million doses of Pfizer would have been put to good use elsewhere.

It’s such a balancing act for the government. The point at which the lack of vaccines puts your vulnerable relative or friend at risk is the point when the electorate will turn on the government. I completely get the frustration at the fact these governments’ could have, but didn’t, order enough vaccines for their populations to be now at a much higher % of fully vaccinated.

@Blackbird2020

The most likely reason as to why NZ (and Australia) didn’t order the volume they needed earlier is cost.

Both these governments considered that their COVID situations were under control, and so didn’t want to negotiate for vaccines at a time when demand and the price point were extremely high. They probably made a financial decision to try to save their respective countries money by waiting a little longer to be able to negotiate a lower price once demand had settled.

In all fairness the budget required to purchase these vaccines would have been a key consideration, but that doesn’t sound as good to the electorate as “We wanted to give to those more in need”, given the current situations in both NZ and Oz.

They gambled and lost basically. I think there was a fair degree of hubris in it, the idea that we had beaten Covid and could engage with it on our own time frame was fairly ludicrous.

I’m in Auckland, I was becoming anxious and frustrated at our vaccine (non) roll out by May of this year, Other countries were vaxxing in earnest and all we were getting were vague ‘it’s coming’ type messages. I’m a priority group due to an underlying health condition, I jumped on to book literally the minute I got a notification and the earliest slot I could get locally was 24 August. Almost the end of our winter. Allowing the vast majority of our population, including people with underlying conditions, to go through winter unprotected whilst still having potential for transmission (MIQ) was completely negligent.

There was an article yesterday saying Pfizer waited six weeks for a response to their initial contact with our government. This doesn’t surprise me, the negotiations were done by our Ministry for Business and Innovation which is an odd choice given we have another entire agency (Pharmac) who do this as a core business.

I also agree with you re the ‘letting others go first’ factor. It’s more likely a combination of complacency, poor execution around securing supply and limited negotiating power due to our small size. The altruistic angle is pure spin. They absolutely can’t frame it as cost savings, as lockdown costs far far exceed the savings.

The government did well in their initial response, but a game isn’t won in the first half

It’s one thing for Government’s to spin - they all do it - but this own seems to have believed their own spin.

They seem to have done absolutely nothing to prepare for this inevitable outbreak, thinking that because “going hard and early” worked a couple of times, it always would.

Yesterday the associate Minister for health announced a pilot scheme for businesses to roll out rapid antigen testing (for those of you out of NZ the Government banned lateral flow tests in April 2020 - the only way to get tested is to go to a testing station and get swabbed and get your results texted to you 24 hours later).

I immediately got on the phone to see if we could get our business in the pilot, and it transpired nothing has been done beyond a meeting “with stakeholders” being organised - “the details are still to be ironed out”.

Tried to get on-site vaccinations sorted out for our workplace - got the run-around for weeks, then they told us to get an on-site vaccination service we’d need to guarantee 72 people, then they went quiet for weeks, then came back and told us actually minimum 90 people and wouldn’t specify a date that they would come. I gave up.

Every interaction I have with the management of this pandemic fills me with despair. I was a life-long Labour voter before this.

NZ government does seem almost comically cautious about just doing things. A good example is rapid flow tests. There’s no need for a pilot scheme. The rest of the world have been using them for months. The U.K. has had them in hospitals since summer last year and in all high schools since Jan 2021 and mass distribution at mass events giving them out like sweets to the British public since maybe February. They are not complicated.
NZ should just roll them out to everyone / businesses / schools etc using evidence from the U.K. as to their usefulness in different situations.
I can completely see why NZ business is tearing their hair out listening to “pilot studies” and “pieces of work” etc. Must drive everyone mad!

Tried to get on-site vaccinations sorted out for our workplace - got the run-around for weeks, then they told us to get an on-site vaccination service we’d need to guarantee 72 people, then they went quiet for weeks, then came back and told us actually minimum 90 people and wouldn’t specify a date that they would come. I gave up.

Why can't people just go to a vaccination centre? Moaning because they won't send vaccinators to your workplace seems a little precious.

Of course they can @Warhertisuff and most people have and will. But if the objective is to jab harder to reach people to close that last 10-20% - people with mobility issues or childcare issues or complacency - why wouldn’t you make it as easy as possible to mop those people up? Why wibble about for 6 weeks and keep changing the rules? Our workforce isn’t high risk and most people have the means to get along to a vax centre. But if my experience with MoH is illustrative of their efforts to reach marginalised communities where vax rates urgently need to be lifted - then we are fucked.

Agree @sashagabadon - problem is they legislated to ban them last year and don’t want to eat humble pie and admit it was a fuck up by unrolling that law.

Even the most dire modelling by TPM with no public health measures in place put us as 80,000. That was almost certainly far too high - even Shaun Hendy acknowledges that now. Much maligned Sweden with no lockdowns and a population of 10 million has had 14,000 deaths

I swear to God, some of the "modelling" done by supposed experts in this pandemic has me rolling my eyes really hard. Just a complete lack of common sense from people who apparently have their heads jammed so hard inside their computers that they forget to look at the real world.

Remember doing maths lessons at school as a kid? And our teachers would tell us "Now remember, everyoneafter you've done your calculations, you must look at the question one more time and then look at your answer, and ask yourself, DOES MY ANSWER 'MAKE SENSE'? And if it doesn't, go back and checkit means a silly mistake has crept in somewhere!"

Seems like some of the modellers could do with going back to primary school, frankly.

Close family members working in a major NZ hospital have had the emergency steps updated and confirmed in case they start to get overwhelmed. Both of them will be front line and re-deployed. The frustrating thing is PIL (definitely at risk, medical conditions etc) are very much of the "covid is no worse than hayfever" "we take a lot of vitamin c" and "the drs are so young they don't really understand the covid situation" school of thought.
These are actual quotes from our recent conversations. They are based in a small town which has had a recent outbreak but still seem quite fearful of the vaccination.
I actually don't know how NZ will get to the higher %'s of duly vaccinated without some mandates. Even the passport/limitations will be up to individual businesses to police which is very difficult for the smaller ones who have already done it tough through lockdown and can't afford to alienate any clientele as they open up. At least with it mandated here in NSW it is easier for the owners to say "it's the law".

@Wakeupin2022 yes Gladys 'may' have done wrong, however we now have a premier in her place who is, a trump supporter, anti gay rights, and voted against decriminalisation of abortion in 2019. The future looks very bleak with this religious nut in charge.

@StartupRepair the general feeling is not good. He is not a man who I would want leading my state. Openly spoke about his support for trump, highly religious and was against the decriminalisation of abortion and is against gay rights and marriage.

For all Gladys faults she was a great leader and I feel as do all my friends that we have taken a step back as a country in 2021 especially as women.

It's certainly a step back for NSW.
I guess a reminder that if you have a LNP government there is no guarantee they won't slip in a far right religious nutter. What do you think about his race to open up?

It feels a bit of an opportunity to make his mark.

I think it's a bit rushed, I'm concerned that there are some areas who still have lower vax rates outside greater sydney and they should be restricting travel until they have reached the 70/80% levels because of their lack of healthcare.

There has also been some noise about the restrictions on restaurants regardless of size only being able to have 20 diners when they would usually have more than 100.

I feel that if we slowed it down it's more likely we will make it to Christmas without having to have local lockdowns again.