Australia/New Zealand New Thread

[Kokeshi123]

www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/pandemic-australia-still-liberal-democracy/619940/

Intrastate travel within Australia is also severely restricted. And the government of South Australia, one of the country’s six states, developed and is now testing an app as Orwellian as any in the free world to enforce its quarantine rules. People in South Australia will be forced to download an app that combines facial recognition and geolocation. The state will text them at random times, and thereafter they will have 15 minutes to take a picture of their face in the location where they are supposed to be. Should they fail, the local police department will be sent to follow up in person. “We don’t tell them how often or when, on a random basis they have to reply within 15 minutes,” Premier Steven Marshall explained. “I think every South Australian should feel pretty proud that we are the national pilot for the home-based quarantine app.”

This is... really really disturbing, honestly.

I grew up admiring (and, let's be honest, envying) Australians because as a nation, they always came across as a down-to-earth, fearless lot who had a healthy skepticism of authority while also being basically very civic/community minded.

What's gone wrong?

I was of the understanding that herd immunity was no longer a possibility with the advent of Delta. Not until a 2nd generation vaccine is developed, anyhow...

Looks like hotel quarantine to be wound down in NSW which is good news for all expats and the airlines as they’ll be no rational to keep the cap on returnees anymore.
It does seem bonkers to continue to insist on expensive, high resources quarantine for double jabbed people (that most likely don’t even have Covid) when you have 1500 daily cases in the community. The cost/ benefit is no longer there.

Over 70% of over 16s now had their first dose in Aus. Vaccination going really well

More than 90% of over 70s.

85% of over 50s.

Over 60s in WA and QLD now have access to Pfizer if they choose, so hopefully that will help reach any holdouts in the over 60s who didn't want to have AZ.

@flyornofly wearing a mask on the beach is the rules here, based on public health advice. Construction sites, also predominantly outdoors are another major vector for delta transmission. You might be prepared to take the risk of not wearing a mask outdoors, but others aren't and the rules are on their side, so yeah, you're gonna get tutted at. I run for exercise, and I consider it my responsibility as a runner to make sure I don't breathe all over other people. Not because I am at any risk of infecting themhaving been nowhere and seen no-one for months, I'm notbut because it's courteous to ensure they don't have to worry about it.

To those fixating on the oncologist-in-NZ scenario: it's ONE of MANY reasons NZ has opted for elimination. Spread it over a whole health system, though, and the risk of losing a specialist for a couple of weeks to a highly infectious disease is a near-certainty. I'm not in New Zealand, and not listening to their pressers every day, so I am not going to comment further on their approach, other than to say I think they are doing the right thing for their economy and populace, and that their approach has been highly effective, with most of the country living a broadly normal life for most of the pandemic.

[quote CallItLoneliness]@Wakeupin2022 Your government COULD have kept COVID out, or at a much lower level, but chose not to (I am assuming you're in the UK). You're an island nation, same as many that have had zero or very low COVID. The differences between your cities (where most of the population live) and our cities (where most of the population live) are negligible in terms of population density etc. Countries within Europe did close their borders to other European countries. Finland has managed a relatively low level of COVID with land borders with Sweden and Russia. All this "we couldn't" stuff is just a(nother in your case) way to have a pop at countries that have chosen to do things differently.

You might believe that kids are all going to be fine. We all thought that about adults too, but now there is evidence of persistent heart inflammation in 60%, and cognitive damage in nearly all adult COVID patients, even those with very mild COVID. I don't think we have the answers to these questions for kids yet, and (as a scientist) I suspect the answers won't be good when we get them. If I can avoid taking that chance with my kids, I will, but it isn't irrational, or silly, it's science, and an opportunity my government have given me that yours couldn't be arsed to give you and your kids.[/quote]
As a scientist I would have thought you would be able to analyse data and interpret it in a better way. If course we don't know a lot of what's ahead. We never have and never will. As a scientist you should understand that more than most.

I live with a scientist and I think we have taken a sensible approach to this pandemic whilst trying to manage the welfare of our kids.

I understand the risks are not non existant but I can't go looking for excuses to lock us down again or close borders. Its a constantly evolving situation. If a new variant comes along that is more dangerous to kids then we would need to reasses then.

I can understand why you think it's been very badly handled in the UK and some of it has. They have always been too slow to lockdown. They have underfunded NHS / Social Care for so many years that we have been in a much worse situation than needed and that has cost lives. We are also generally too fat ( and I include myself in that) and have an older population than some countries. There is a lot of poverty and a high immigrat population which has spread the virus more due to living conditions.

That is why the UK has fared so badly.

There is always a balance between restrictions and freedom in a pandemic. Possibly the UK could have had more severe restrictions but I'm not sure that is what the population really wanted. There is a balance to be had. I would want to be in USA for example, but on the other hand I would not want to be in China / Australia/ New Zealand even if they have had less lockdown and more 'freedom' than me.

*I wouldn't want to be in USA

Mandated masks on the beach is simply nuts.

There really is no environment less likely to spread covid than the beach.

And if certain specialists in NZ really are that rare, surely you should be looking at importing more of them? Which would necessitate a less stringent border policy.

No zero covid policies can guard against that very important specialist having a heart attack, being in an RTA, counteracting cancer.

The “risk” of not wearing a mask on the beach is infinitesimal. This is what I mean about Australians having lost the plot.

See also closing playgrounds. Not a single case of playground transmission reported anywhere in the world. Yet they do it there anyway and give the reason that it’s because parents are (GASP) drinking coffee while their parents play. Totally irrelevant to covid spread.

Anyway, you sound happy with it so that’s great. I know where I’d rather be, and it’s not australia right now (which is sad because all my family are there).

• drinking coffee while their children play. Obvs

drinking coffee while their children play

Shocking , right?

Flashbacks to those MN threads in April 2020 about people eating crisps on a park bench being evil murderers.

Going back to the hypothetical oncologist (sorry 😁) as long as their vaccinated they should experience almost no symptoms. They should be able to carry on a certain amount of work at home. One of the only good things that has happened from this for the NHS is the improvement in the use of technology by doctors. I know multiple who can now WFH doing clinics (!), treatment plans, review medicines etc. It’s really increased their reach whilst making the work more manageable personally.

They’re not their obvs

There was an interesting debate on another thread as to the responsibilities of those who could get vaccinated to those who couldn’t (underlying health reason, allergies, etc.).

Some people considered that there was a moral responsibility to be vaccinated, while others thought otherwise. I don’t think anyone was wrong, just different approaches to the situation.

The current vaccines cannot 100% stop the transmission of Delta. I believe it reduces transmission risk to about 50% by reducing the viral load and contagious days, to a greater or lesser degree, depending on the individual. So the current situation is that if you are unvaccinated, no matter how many adults and children are vaccinated, the virus will eventually find you. Which is obviously a pretty horrible situation for those who are CEV and not able to have the vaccine.

A country would therefore need to continue a total elimination policy post-vaccination in order to protect the vulnerable in society. At least until new treatments can be found, or a new vaccine can be developed.

That policy being highly unlikely it’s the balanced approach that I think most governments will look to post-vaccination programme. And that may include not vaccinating under 12s anytime in the near future.

I live in Australia and I used to find it confronting to be told that Australians were hysterical about covid and over reacting. I have to say that now we are finally approaching the point where we will open up and live with covid I can see that there are a lot of people holding a lot of fear. I've always feared lockdown more than covid because I find them awful and utterly unliveable I guess I sort of assumed lots of other people felt the same. They were a sensible strategy here in 2020 however. I am now finding that lots of people don't really mind lockdowns that much if it keeps scary covid out. There are lots of people that are homebodies and can work from home and don't miss that much being locked down. I have heard multiple people say they are happy to stay locked down until the end of November if that's what is needed to vaccinate whatever new group someone dreams up as being important. There is absolutely no consideration here for the people completely screwed over by lockdowns.

As a teacher I can see how many kids futures are being thrown away right now because they can't engage with remote learning. Some of them will never catch up. But that's OK because lots of middle class people are comfortable in their big homes working from home and lockdown just means a few delayed holidays to them. There is no urgency to getting out of lockdown here and I find it baffling and frustrating.

I don't necessarily think that death is always worse than condemning lots of young people to much shittier lives than they would otherwise have had.

If you're not going to vaccinate children then I think you just have to keep them in school and accept that they will all get it. It will spread like wildfire through schools. Deaths are rare, but they do happen. I think you really need to look at the safety profile of the vaccine versus COVID and keep assessing the emerging data.

@TheKeatingFive Please stop referring to New Zealand as "you" when I have told you now four times that I'm not there. The reason they don't have more specialists is because with a population of 5 million people, they only need one. And there are a number of categories of specialist for which that is true. If those people work with vulnerable people, then it doesn't matter whether they have almost no symptoms while they are infected: they can't work. Especially as we now know the vaccines have variable efficacy in people with autoimmune conditions, for example. It may not make sense to you, but it is a necessary consideration for the response in NZ

@Wakeupin2022 would you be so rude in real life? Living with a scientist doesn't make you one. The UK response to COVID is globally recognised as one of the poorest, and one of the worst for everyone--it's torched your economy, alongside the loss of life. In contrast, New Zealand has had almost no restrictions internally throughout the pandemic, so I'm not sure what "loss of freedoms" you're talking about there, and their economy has been one of the least hit.

@flyornofly yes the risk of not wearing a mask on a beach is miniscule, but everything we know about behavioural science tells us you get better compliance with simple rules, and a mask on a beach is not a huge mitigator against use of the beach, is it? "Wear masks outside" is simple, "wear masks outside, but not on the beach when the wind is over 20 knots..." One of the things this pandemic has demonstrated over and over again is that human behaviour needs to be taken into consideration when mitigating against the pandemic, and simple rules are one factor of this being used here.

Across the board one facet of human behaviour is to believe that the costs you have paid for something are "worth it"--and this applies to both sides of the elimination argument. TBH now that VIC has gone to "living with the virus" to keep construction open, I no longer believe the costs are worth it...I guess we will see tomorrow, but I cannot imagine how this approach will lead to anything but a grinding, endless lockdown.

Oh, sorry, references for @Wakeupin2022
www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4907
papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3605136

I’m not a fan of the torys or BJ by any means but I’m not sure being globally recognised as one of the poorest responses makes it true at all. The U.K. is very privileged and has this been able to do more than most countries to support the economy. I’m not sure covid has torched the economy at all. Brexit yes, but not covid, not compared to lots of other European countries. The economic numbers really can’t be compare across europe because of the different ways to measure output but the U.K. has not been by any means the worst managed and the support given to businesses and people has really gone above and beyond comparatively. The Austrian government for example are facing probably years of legal problems over their reaction to the outbreak in ishgl.

The reason they don't have more specialists is because with a population of 5 million people, they only need one.

It’s not exactly rocket science to have contingency plans if something happens to them, which could be cause by a wide range of things of which covid is just one. Your posts sound like you don’t think anyone dies or is incapacitated from anything except covid.

And what if they simply want to throw in the towel and move to the country and raise chickens? Are they not allowed?

Your government COULD have kept COVID out, or at a much lower level, but chose not to (I am assuming you're in the UK). You're an island nation, same as many that have had zero or very low COVID.

Why does this still persist? It seems there is low understanding still of the differences between countries.

You're an island nation, same as many that have had zero or very low COVID.

How many times does this have to be corrected 🤦‍♀️

@CallItLoneliness

@Wakeupin2022 would you be so rude in real life?

Wait, didn’t you tell me to fuck off yesterday?

I am not sure the country that has developed the most used covid vaccine in the world has had the worst response to covid no. I think it’s a very narrow viewpoint to only view success by how much you lockdown. Lockdown was meant to be temporary with vaccines the long way out given the U.K. has been leading in that vaccine side of things it’s odd to call it “the worst response”

The reason they don't have more specialists is because with a population of 5 million people, they only need one

Can vouch for this to some extent. When I last lived in NZ - admittedly it was 2002 - it was common to send people to Australia for 'complicated' treatments such as surgery, even breast cancer. Not making any criticisms - just reflecting on the skills base relative to population, and cases seen/resources available.

I'd be surprised if it had changed much.

Except, of course, Aus now also has its own issues re health care.