Australia/New Zealand New Thread

[Kokeshi123]

www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/pandemic-australia-still-liberal-democracy/619940/

Intrastate travel within Australia is also severely restricted. And the government of South Australia, one of the country’s six states, developed and is now testing an app as Orwellian as any in the free world to enforce its quarantine rules. People in South Australia will be forced to download an app that combines facial recognition and geolocation. The state will text them at random times, and thereafter they will have 15 minutes to take a picture of their face in the location where they are supposed to be. Should they fail, the local police department will be sent to follow up in person. “We don’t tell them how often or when, on a random basis they have to reply within 15 minutes,” Premier Steven Marshall explained. “I think every South Australian should feel pretty proud that we are the national pilot for the home-based quarantine app.”

This is... really really disturbing, honestly.

I grew up admiring (and, let's be honest, envying) Australians because as a nation, they always came across as a down-to-earth, fearless lot who had a healthy skepticism of authority while also being basically very civic/community minded.

What's gone wrong?

GB is an island geographically but not societally. NI is part of the UK and on a separate island connected to another country which has free movement with the whole rest of the EU. GB and NI can’t be split up without significant reunifications. There is only 12 miles between GB and France. Hundreds of people cross daily in small dinghies undocumented plus the trade and significant travel, including commuting, between them. It’s in no way comparable the NZ or Australia.

How do you see the next 5 years on NZ? The virologist I was referring to before seemed to think young children will build immunity over their lives which will protect them into older adulthood. With then a vaccine boost at 60 ish. This is what happens with most infections. Covid is obviously dangerous to older people with no immunity. How can children in NZ be protected without boarder closures lasting indefinitely? Is this worth it for you? I’m not taking a side, I’m simply surprised however that may be because I’m a European native and travel internationally regularly (though the distance is significantly less than that between Sydney and Brisbane). I’m wondering if a covid test and a flu test will be required to enter aus in future. Not a bad idea necessarily, again I’m not taking any side, it’s just an interesting situation to observe.

Why do people keep saying the U.K. is an island nation? It’s not, and its land border (with the Republic of Ireland, an EU member) is one of the most politically sensitive in the world and definitely not one you could close.

Lots of sanctimonious people on here preaching about how we all need to pay more attention to vulnerable indigenous Australians (which I agree with) but a refusal to accept the U.K. was always very hamstrung by its inability to close its borders.

^Is it ok for WakeUpIn2022 to call me irrational and silly in real life, or just on an anonymous internet forum? If someone said those things to me in real life, they would get exactly the same response--I'm antipodean, after all.
^

Is that what did in my well mannered post?

Show me......or apologise

Oh actually, I apologise, @Blackbird2020, it was YOU suggesting that believing COVID infection might present a long term risk to our children is silly (a position you seem particularly wedded to). Here are some scientists and science that says it isn't silly:

dx.doi.org/10.1111%2Fapa.15731 this is a review of some early case reports, and an epidemiologist saying we need more information

doi.org/10.1097/inf.0000000000003285 90 cases of long covid in children--mostly respiratory

doi.org/10.1001/jama.2021.11880 Around 4% of children experience 'tiredness' and 'difficultly concentrating' post COVID

@Wakeupin2022 my apologies, I had misread--it was Blackbird.

@Blackbird2020 calling other opinions 'irrational' is hardly what I would call 'respectful', especially when not backed up by science.

@flyornofly The RoI has had a more conservative approach to COVID than the UK, but you're right, I apologise not an island nation.

Thanks for the links @CallItLoneliness

Here’s another link to add the the debate:

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/17/long-covid-in-children-and-adolescents-is-less-common-than-previously-feared

They are ALL very interesting to read.

I agree that the long term outlook of covid is no good however for me it’s not any worse than the alternative choices. Ideally covid would never have emerged but it has and so now I’m content that we are on the best path available. Thank heavens for the vaccine.

Sorry - thank science and scientists for the vaccine, not heaven.

The irrational fear (for young children’s health) generated by a new virus

Cheers @CallItLoneliness I thought similar - and actually find this line particularly odd.

How can a fear of a new virus to be irrational at any level? What a cavalier suggestion 🤷🏼‍♀️.

Anyway, even if we accept the low risk to kids (and I'm certainly happy to do that, given what is emerging overseas), aren't some of the main reasons for fears - irrational or otherwise - less about the risks to them but more about them silently spreading it to an ageing grandparent or otherwise vulnerable relative?

@newstart1234 I believe NZ will vaccinate children, especially if they want to travel. That is how they will build immunity. I also think there will be travel restrictions from high risk countries until they can vaccinate children.

@CallItLoneliness

Is it ok for WakeUpIn2022 to call me irrational and silly in real life

@Wakeupin2022 my apologies, I had misread--it was Blackbird

I never called you irrational?! I was writing a general post, not directed at any individual on this forum!

Some fears are irrational, some aren’t.

Some people have irrational fears regarding COVID. It’s understandable. Science sorts out the rational fear from the irrational fear (hopefully).

I apologies for upsetting you. I have never set out to upset any poster here.

@Blackbird2020 your responses are becoming laughable. You have come onto a thread where people are discussing COVID in Australia and New Zealand (many of us actually from there), and asserted that parents in the UK are superior because they have been living in the pandemic and so they know what is a rational fear and what isn't, and expected all the Australians and Kiwis on the thread to just...be ok with that?

Ok, I think my previous post has unwittingly derailed this thread.

For the record, I do not believe that any parent or family anywhere in the world is superior to Aus or NZ families.

I also do not believe that these same families know the difference between rational and irrational fear.

Well…I’ve just come back from a visit to Aus and it is true that the level of hysteria over covid is a bit OTT. Particularly around surface & outdoor transmission - the reality is (and australia would know this if it actually learned from all the fvck ups of the U.K. and the us) - the vast majority of covid transmission happens in the home, and in health/aged care settings. There is absolutely no need to be wearing a mask on the beach, to be banned from using pegs in quarantine (as we were in the NT), to have a night time curfew, to be hysterically repeating claims about “every adult who has had covid suffers cognitive decline”. It just makes you sound silly - most of us here know dozens of not hundreds of people who have covid and the vast majority of them are fine.

That’s not to say covid is “like the flu”, or harmless, or that lockdowns in an unvaccinated population are not necessary, but the reality is that this is a nasty but not apocryphal disease, particularly for the young.

I believe NZ will vaccinate children, especially if they want to travel. That is how they will build immunity.

The vaccine isn’t approved for under 12s yet anywhere. There’s no guarantee it will be. And how long are you prepared to wait for it?

And the vaccine, while great at preventing serious disease (minimal in children anyway) isn’t nearly as efficacious at preventing infection.

Interesting about vaccinating children. This discussion over the last few mo this has made me consider vaccination my child who has not had chicken pox against it. I’ve heard in aus they give that jab to children and it’s certainly intriguing. If my child gets to 10 without catching it I’ll get it for them I think. However this has made me rethink that and consider not waiting and simply get it now.

I also do not believe that these same families know the difference between rational and irrational fear.

Cor blimey 😬

You have come onto a thread where people are discussing COVID in Australia and New Zealand (many of us actually from there)

My family live in Australia. So I’m not just a U.K. based random on this thread (though I’m sure anyone and everyone is welcome to post their opinion, wherever in the world they are from).

[quote CallItLoneliness]**@Blackbird2020* your responses are becoming laughable. You have come onto a thread where people are discussing COVID in Australia and New Zealand (many of us actually from there), and asserted that parents in the UK are superior because they have been living in the pandemic and so they know* what is a rational fear and what isn't, and expected all the Australians and Kiwis on the thread to just...be ok with that?[/quote]
Please don’t speak for me. I agree with Blackbird, people around me are being irrational when it comes to covid and children and it’s because of the unknown even when you show them data they are not swayed.

I’m sure once more children contract covid the (irrational) fear factor will go down 🤞

@KowhaiWhy

Why cor blimey?

Yes immunity is built also be repeated exposure. The best is by infection and then vaccine (not ideal obviously) then it’s vaccine and then natural infection. If covid is kept out completely then will the booster program be across the whole population? Annually? Biannually?

I know if I had moved to NZ in my younger days I’d be rapidly planning my move back. I couldn’t happily be that cut off indefinitely.

Oh just bits and bobs about ... superiority/irrational fears 🤷🏼‍♀️

then it’s vaccine and then natural infection.

I’m not even sure that’s true. It seems that breakthrough infections are much more common than reinfections.

They vaccinate kids for chicken pox as standard here. You need to have all the recommended vaccines here to access child benefits and childcare rebates and for public schools aswell I believe