Transmission

[Whathefisgoingon]

So for a while now I’ve been feeling like I only really want to socialise with friends who have been vaccinated. I appreciate not everyone feels this way but aside from them being “safer” I’ve grown resentful of those in my life who are not having it as they’ve been pedalling anti vax nonsense.

I am now confused though, and I’m not sure I understand if vaccinated people are actually safer as the Delta variant is dominant.

It was my understanding that with the original strain, transmission was significantly reduced, but with Delta apparently those who are vaccinated and infected have the same viral load as those who are not vaccinated, and are therefore able to transmit it just as much as the unvaccinated.

Once I read that, I figured.. well, you have to actually have covid to transmit it, and the vaccines reduce the chance of you catching it. But of course that’s not how it works, is it? Because even as a vaccinated person I will still become infected and be covid positive, I just (hopefully) won’t suffer severe disease.

So how exactly are vaccinated people less “dangerous” to others?

Genuine question. Both DP and I have been double jabbed since May and I’m now thinking that the precautions I’ve been taking with certain unvaccinated people are kinda pointless.

So how exactly are vaccinated people less “dangerous” to others?

They aren't.

Your reasoning is spot on.

@Usual2usual

Obviously I feel everyone should get vaccinated regardless, but I feel like I might be missing something here.

I understood it that people need to get vaccinated to reduce the need for hospitalisation and to minimise the illness in themselves and the inconvenience that would bring. That's why I've done it. Still regularly seeing unvaccinated friend, it's her issue, her choice.

I should add unvaccinated friend is early 30s, I am late 40s. Not sure her risk is that great anyway.

My immediate social circle is vaccinated as far as I know - it was quite a topic of conversation at the time.

I wouldn't socialise with someone I knew to be an outspoken vaccine refuser.

Obviously I feel everyone should get vaccinated regardless, but I feel like I might be missing something here.

I agree but there is a big difference between 'I don't want to mix with anti vax people' and 'I don't want to mix with unvaccinated people' because they are not all one and the same.

@Usual2usual I think at this stage they are the same. I can understand why people were hesitant to start with, but billions have been vaccinated now and when people tell you their reasoning for not having it, it’s “infertility”, “government control” or “it’s not safe” which are all conspiracy theories.

To be honest I don’t really want to mix with unvaccinated people in any case because we are clearly very different types of people.

[quote Whathefisgoingon]@Usual2usual

Obviously I feel everyone should get vaccinated regardless, but I feel like I might be missing something here.[/quote]
You are a little.

Once I read that, I figured.. well, you have to actually have covid to transmit it, and the vaccines reduce the chance of you catching it. But of course that’s not how it works, is it?

This is exactly how it works - vaccines significantly reduce your chances of becoming infected with coronavirus. If you don't have it you can't pass it on.

More recent studies using random sampling in the UK have demonstrated that viral load is lower in those who are infectious in vaccinated compared to unvaccinated people. In addition, vaccinated people are infectious for shorter window of time, further reducing transmission.

In short, vaccines significantly reduce transmission. This isn't specifically a reason to avoid anyone based on their vaccination status, but the anti-vaccine crowd need to stop peddling it as a reason to not get vaccinated.

[quote Whathefisgoingon]@Usual2usual I think at this stage they are the same. I can understand why people were hesitant to start with, but billions have been vaccinated now and when people tell you their reasoning for not having it, it’s “infertility”, “government control” or “it’s not safe” which are all conspiracy theories.

To be honest I don’t really want to mix with unvaccinated people in any case because we are clearly very different types of people.[/quote]
I'm inclined to agree. People who can't have it are another matter though I think. Now that over 80% are fully vaccinated hesitancy is becoming less credible.

vaccinated people are less likely to catch it in the first place. When they do the viral load is the same.
I believe its around 66% for AZ and 75% for Pfizer. that means that out of 100 people exposed, 66 (AZ) will not get symptoms and catch it and 34 will.

@ollyollyoxenfree Thanks!

How does that work though? If I come in to direct contact with covid, how does the vaccine stop me becoming infected? I don’t understand that part at all. I thought it was the case that I get infected but my immune system is already primed to fend it off, rather than starting from scratch. How can it actually stop me becoming infected in the first place?

I hope that is the case though.

@ilovesooty Oh for sure. If someone can’t have it for medical reasons that’s fair enough and I would never judge them. I actually know someone who had convinced their elderly and vulnerable parents NOT to get vaccinated.

[quote Whathefisgoingon]@ollyollyoxenfree Thanks!

How does that work though? If I come in to direct contact with covid, how does the vaccine stop me becoming infected? I don’t understand that part at all. I thought it was the case that I get infected but my immune system is already primed to fend it off, rather than starting from scratch. How can it actually stop me becoming infected in the first place?

I hope that is the case though.[/quote]
In short your immune system responds so quickly you the virus doesn't have a chance to replicate and take hold.

If vaccines didn't stop this happening their efficacy would be 0% - but we can see that even though delta has reduced efficacy the lowest estimates are ~60%.

I mean that there are plenty of people who can't have it (same with other vaccines) so anti vax and unvaccinated are not always the same thing.

If a vaccinated person can still catch covid and still transmit it then what makes them less of a 'risk' than someone who is unvaccinated? The 'risk' with covid is how ill some people can get. If you are double vaccinated then your risk is much lower than someone who is unvaccinated so they might still catch it from you and possibly come off worse from it.

@whatistheworld

vaccinated people are less likely to catch it in the first place. When they do the viral load is the same. I believe its around 66% for AZ and 75% for Pfizer. that means that out of 100 people exposed, 66 (AZ) will not get symptoms and catch it and 34 will.

Viral load was comparable is one study, but the duration of being infectious.

In addition, Imperial's REACT study using random sampling (so a representative estimate of what happens in the real world) giving a total sample of 100,000 participants demonstrated lower viral loads.

The study’s analyses of PCR test results also suggest that fully vaccinated people may be less likely than unvaccinated people to pass the virus on to others, due to having a smaller viral load on average and therefore likely shedding less virus.

www.imperial.ac.uk/news/227713/coronavirus-infections-three-times-lower-double/

@ollyollyoxenfree Fab - thanks for the clarification. I did actually think that to begin with but then obviously arrived at a different conclusion.

@Usual2usual

I mean that there are plenty of people who can't have it (same with other vaccines) so anti vax and unvaccinated are not always the same thing.

If a vaccinated person can still catch covid and still transmit it then what makes them less of a 'risk' than someone who is unvaccinated? The 'risk' with covid is how ill some people can get. If you are double vaccinated then your risk is much lower than someone who is unvaccinated so they might still catch it from you and possibly come off worse from it.

A group of vaccinated people, on average, will transmit less than a group of unvaccinated people.

As I said, this isn't specifically a reason to avoid anyone based on their vaccination status unless you are trying to lower your risk for whatever reason, but the anti-vaccine crowd need to stop peddling it as a reason to not get vaccinated.

Also if someone can't have the vaccine they aren't less of a 'risk' than someone who chooses not to have it.

If we are talking about risk of transmission the reason why someone doesn't have it makes no difference

And I'm not anti vax btw (double jabbed).

[quote Whathefisgoingon]@ollyollyoxenfree Fab - thanks for the clarification. I did actually think that to begin with but then obviously arrived at a different conclusion.[/quote]
No worries - yeah I think in this case you can definitely overthink it!

@Usual2usual

Also if someone can't have the vaccine they aren't less of a 'risk' than someone who chooses not to have it.

If we are talking about risk of transmission the reason why someone doesn't have it makes no difference

Yup, this is true

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1013553/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_34.pdf

Here is the latest vaccine surveillance report. Latest estimates on p6. I wouldn't socialise indoors with anyone who has chosen not to be vaccinated.

The reason does make a difference IMO - if someone is following medical advice not to be vaccinated, they are acting on good, strong evidence and are likely to be following the evidence in other ways too, and being cautious.

There is just SO much misinformation about this on MN by people who are trying to justify why they won't take the vaccine ( not you, OP). I think @ollyollyoxenfree has explained it well.

On average a person who has had the vaccine is less likely to have and therefore transmit covid. But a vaccinated person who works on a covid ward or who goes to clubs / festivals every weekend or just comes into contact with a lot of people for whatever reason is probably higher risk than an unvaccinated person who sees few different people.

So I think you're kidding yourself if you're making a decision not to see unvaccinated people based on your own safety. I suspect it's a lot more about not approving of their choice (which is fine - you just have different values and see this as a deal breaker).