School bubble question

[Covidbubblequery]

So we’ve had the dreaded email from our primary school saying that a member of staff in my DC year group bubble (3 classes) has had a positive PCR test and the bubble is closed. We have one more week of school left ☹️ I don’t care if the kids can’t go into school so much as the self isolation that will be imposed. The whole year group is a bubble and some children move classes for maths lessons. However my DC stays with the same teacher and classroom every day for all their lessons. So can the school say that my DC have to self isolate for 10 days because they are in the bubble even if they haven’t been a close contact (I.e. 1m or 2m for longer) of the affected teacher? That’s what they seem to be saying but my DC has not had that teacher at all in the last week (ever actually). Are they allowed to deem everyone in a bubble as a close contact even if they’re not? I get how hard it is to ascertain whether kids have sat next to others at all but in this case where there are quite clear lists of who has what teachers for which subject I thought they would be able to differentiate? Does anyone have any knowledge or experience on this please?

I think the problem is that your son might sit next to David, so if David then goes to miss simthvs class, he could come back with it and then your son could pick it up from David. Hence the bubble.

Thanks for replying findahouse21. Yeah I get what you are saying, but then isn’t that a bit like saying that siblings or other family members of close contacts should also be self isolating when they are then - when that is not the guidance, where does the line get drawn in bubbles?

As a parent you need to make your own choices. However it is naive to believe only the teacher is positive and therefore your DC does not have (or risk of COVID). It is currently everywhere in schools

Also, could be the case teacher had had close contact with other staff in the bubble, so there's not enough staff available.

No the problem isn’t David as that is a contact of a contact, same as if David best friend jo tested positive David’s brother Steve dies t self isolate even though David has a higher chance of positive. You are right abs he shouldn’t have to isolate but I am afraid the school will have gone “this is the bubble” to public health and public health go whole bubble isolates with no right of appeal. Not really anything you can do but no there is no logic based on contact of a contact (which isn’t an issue with housekeeping members never mind random members of the class!)

But I won’t be able to make my own choices if the school have said all of them are close contacts and must isolate. And yes fully aware of the risks/likelihood of Covid going round at the moment, in our house we are choosing to do LFT every other day at the mo

Yes @ifonly4 agree that could be a real issue, and it’s not that I want them in school (although seeing out the end of year would be great for them) it’s more the self isolation that we have to go through when as I see it they are a contact of a contact at best, more likely a contact of a contact of a contact!
@Dghgcotcitc yes that was my logic and couldn’t work out why there couldn’t be more nuancing of the close contact list rather than whole bubble, thanks for the info on how PHE respond to this though. No wonder so many children are not in school and isolating at the moment then.

Have they actually said DS need to isolate?

At our school they've closed entire bubbles and told kids to isolate when another child has tested positive as they can't guarantee who has had close contact.

When a teacher has tested positive they've closed the bubble as all staff had to isolate but only told the kids that had been taught by said staff member in class or numeracy group etc to isolate. Other kids have had home learning but not needed to isolate if that makes sense

I'd query it with the school. I work at a primary school and do the contract tracing. In your case, you'd receive a letter saying that although your child couldn't attend school as the bubble was closed, they're not identified as a close contact so don't need to self isolate.

It's like when a child is absent the day before a bubble is closed, they get a letter saying their self isolation ends a day earlier than those that were in the next day as that's the last contact.

@Covidbubblequery
If your child’s school has said they need to isolate, hen legally you have to isolate. If school find out your child hasn’t isolated you could be liable for a fine.

In my experience (I work in a school) when one of our bubbles has had to close because someone is positive, there has ALWAYS been somebody else who tests positive in the next day or 2. We've not had a closure yet whereby just 1 member of staff or child in that bubble is positive. So your child may not have had contact with the positive teacher but may have had contact with a currently asymptomatic child.

Thanks @LadyPenelope68, I’m not planning on going against legal requirements to isolate, just frustrated when I know DC isn’t what the guidance classes is a close contact

DD had to isolate along with the rest of her class when a TA tested positive. The TA is a 1:1 for a specific child so has minimal contact with the rest of the class really, except perhaps those who sit near to her specific child. The whole class had to isolate anyway- I guess they can't specify all interactions eg which other children she may or may not have spent time with.

Yes I can see how that would/will happen @Whirlywooo and if that happens to someone in our class that is when I would expect us to be a close contact and self isolation required.
Thanks @SillyBub that’s helpful, I don’t know if school are going to change anything which is why I wanted to find out more from anyone who’s been through this before querying.

@SillyBub could you clarify -
if say dc last in tues all day.
Positive case was in thursday (Presumably all day)
so contacts in school tues should not be affected? As morevthan 48h beforehand?

In your position I'd isolate for a few days with regular lateral flow tests and then if all clear after 5 days, I'd stop isolating. I personally wouldn't check with the school as I bet they'll say isolate as then they don't have to work out who exactly goes to which class. It's probably complicated. Don't forget rules change from Monday anyway. So if this happened just a few days later no close contacts would be isolating.

@pinksquash13

In your position I'd isolate for a few days with regular lateral flow tests and then if all clear after 5 days, I'd stop isolating. I personally wouldn't check with the school as I bet they'll say isolate as then they don't have to work out who exactly goes to which class. It's probably complicated. Don't forget rules change from Monday anyway. So if this happened just a few days later no close contacts would be isolating.

They would though! Close contacts will still need to isolate until at least August 16th. That rule doesn't change on Monday only the way schools identify contacts

We've had exactly the same situation at my
DC school. Apparently even the fact that one of the classes was on a school trip and cannot possibly have had contact with the positive case for that day, does not mean that they can finish isolation early. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and I'm seriously fed up of it.

They cannot make you isolate more than 10d from.your dc contact with the case. Doesnt mean they go backvto school if the bubble shuts etc but the rukes are 10d.

@Whirlywooo, that's interesting. My experience (as a parent with lots of teacher friends and friends with children at other schools) I have never once heard of an example where another child or adult has tested positive after a bubble closing.....

When my primary bubble last burst all 4 adults were positive and 10 children who sat at various different parts of the classroom. It's a very large classroom and positive children were at different ends. If someone is positive it's in the air.

[quote Mallowmarshmallow]@Whirlywooo, that's interesting. My experience (as a parent with lots of teacher friends and friends with children at other schools) I have never once heard of an example where another child or adult has tested positive after a bubble closing.....[/quote]
We are Manchester and I know loads of people where 3, 6, 11 in a class all tested +ve in last 6 weeks where spread was clearly in class.

Lots of people have minimised and turned a blind eye to the limitations of the bubble system, and especially as the guidance hasnt changed since the Wuhan variant has been be replaced by all of a cc and now delta. Many people on here have said "schools are fine as there have been no cases in my school etc". This is because systems have not been stress tested, rather than guidance being workable.

At secondaries, bubbles were Initially sent home when there was a single case back in September. Most secondaries switched to some form of contact tracing when there vwere so many cases it happened multiple times within weeks.

This required a list of friendship groups and detailed seating plans. To be honest, the school Im at has never implemented this properly as no one has ever checked which desks are within 2m of another in each of the 12 rooms for each case probably because it happens so often

Unless the primary school has some clear systems in place to monitor who is exposed to they will have to send the whole bubble home

when they liaise with public health they will be asked if they can identify close contacts. If they say no because they haven't got systems in place ( because there have been few cases so far): the advice would be to send the bubble home.

Now you might think they could work it out but staffing levels in primaries are lower and

Staff have no training or background in contact tracing which is added on to all their other duties, have limited time to sort out arrangements communicate with parents, and need to be confident they don't make mistakes

I get it is frustrating but honestly it is ridiculous that we spent 37bn on track and trace and the government have never had workable procedures in place for schools. This shit has been going on all year in a lot of places, but a lot of people turned a blind eye to it It is just that with Delta being more transmissible more people are more realising how badly covid outbreaks in schools have been handled

Delta seems to vary 1 class 1->4
So far the other clasess are all at 1. So maybe the original case soread it to 3 other year groups. Its unclear maybe it was a teacher across bubbles etc.

Iys an outbreak though with around 8 cases in 2w.
The bubbles were ehole year group snd shared after school club. All together in the hall at lunch.
So ours was a step towards ehat it is like without bubbles.
Not having children as contacts is way too far.

@Whirlywooo

In my experience (I work in a school) when one of our bubbles has had to close because someone is positive, there has ALWAYS been somebody else who tests positive in the next day or 2. We've not had a closure yet whereby just 1 member of staff or child in that bubble is positive. So your child may not have had contact with the positive teacher but may have had contact with a currently asymptomatic child.

It has been the complete opposite in my school (primary). There has never been anyone test positive in the isolation period of the bubble and all of the bubbles have isolated most of them multiple times but never one after the other. I would like to see more data on this as it worries me that we are subjecting young children to being housebound unnecessarily