Vaccine was never really about stopping people getting it?

[SpringheelJack]

I've read so many threads on here from people baffled by the rise in numbers despite our vaccine rate that I'm starting to doubt myself. I'd be interested to hear from anyone with more expertise than the average layman - which is very much what I am!

My understanding was always that the vaccine we have was proven to reduce the effects of Covid - that is to prevent serious illness and reduce symptoms - which might help reduce transmission because if you're not coughing etc you'll pass it on less. But it was always a "reduce symptoms" type vaccine, not a "stop you getting it" vaccine. It's not the only vaccine of this type, though most of the common childhood vaccines are "stop you getting it" vaccines so that's what we tend to think all vaccines do. This is what I thought was the case from the beginning, although it didn't seem like the government did a very good job of explaining this.

Current infection trends seem to bear out my understanding - serious illness is reduced and there's some reduction in transmission - but it basically continues to circulate even in the fully vaccinated ( not just because "no vaccine is 100% effective" but because its main function is to reduce symptoms/severity of illness). Have I got it right?

The idea of the covid jabs is to prevent those who succumb to covid won’t need to be hospitalised
That was my original understanding. I was trying to square that with the widespread bafflement at why cases are rising in spite of the vaccine.

That was my original understanding. I was trying to square that with the widespread bafflement at why cases are rising in spite of the vaccine

There is nowhere near the covid cases in hospital now as there was this time last year. Which means the vaccinations are working - right? 🤔

@SpringheelJack

The idea of the covid jabs is to prevent those who succumb to covid won’t need to be hospitalised That was my original understanding. I was trying to square that with the widespread bafflement at why cases are rising in spite of the vaccine.

It's because they're rising faster than we would have expected. The initial information about Pfizer was that it was about 95% effective in preventing symptomatic infections. Later studies also seemed to show the vaccines helped prevent transmission, by maybe 50% or so.

So given that, it seems odd and unexpected that in a highly vaccinated population the cases are rising as fast as they did in the second wave. Of course you would expect them to rise, but you'd also expect that if most people were very much less likely to catch and half as likely to pass it on that it wouldn't be as fast.

Of course it has been baffling initially although it looks like it's because of the Delta variant, and the bafflement is turning into despair!

Vaccines often have a big role in keeping levels of the disease low in a population rather than just preventing severe illness, so of course we were hoping for the covid vaccines to play this role and it did look promising a few months ago.

Surely there must be a better term than long Covid, it sounds so weird. Not just Covid, but long Covid. Is this a medical term?

So given that, it seems odd and unexpected that in a highly vaccinated population the cases are rising as fast as they did in the second wave.

Pfizer trials were pre delta (and even alpha) variants. So not odd or unexpected at all really. I’m sure the figures hold up for the original Wuhan variant.

Anyway, it would be great if they did prevent infection and hopefully in time vaccines will be produced that are more effective against new variants. In the meantime, they are very efficacious in preventing serious illness and death, and that is the main thing.

The vaccine was to prevent serious illness. With all new medical interventions they can’t always be sure what else will happen. This is a new intervention for a novel virus. They can’t be sure how much more of a benefit it will have, but it is worth noting that before Delta, the vaccine was shown to reduce transmission.

highly vaccinated population

50% is not highly vaccinated.

My understanding was always that the vaccine we have was proven to reduce the effects of Covid - that is to prevent serious illness and reduce symptoms - which might help reduce transmission because if you're not coughing etc you'll pass it on less. But it was always a "reduce symptoms" type vaccine, not a "stop you getting it" vaccine.

Yes, that was my understanding. I remember news to that effect early on.

@RickiTarr

My understanding was always that the vaccine we have was proven to reduce the effects of Covid - that is to prevent serious illness and reduce symptoms - which might help reduce transmission because if you're not coughing etc you'll pass it on less. But it was always a "reduce symptoms" type vaccine, not a "stop you getting it" vaccine.

Yes, that was my understanding. I remember news to that effect early on.

I agree - that was my understanding. I was baffled by the number of people comparing it to smallpox and polio injections. But, I can understand their disappointment that being vaccination does not mean for them - no more covid and holidays abroad will be back.

Vaccines are never 100% effective for everyone nor do they necessarily stop people getting whatever disease they protect against.

This hasn't been clocked by the public.

So many people think they are now immune to covid because they are double jabbed. This is not necessarily the case.

They will have some immunity to it which may stop them getting it, or it may simply reduce its seriousness but it also may not. It certainly doesn't 100% mean they will never get covid again - especially when you consider how viruses evolve.

People not understanding this are putting themselves and others at risk. The message needs to be rammed home.

The vaccines are highly effective at preventing infection and symptomatic disease (65-90%) as well as severe disease (94%) after two doses. They're less effective against infection and symptomatic disease from the delta variant after 1 dose compared with alpha or the original strain, but still very effective at preventing hospitalisation. Transmission is also reduced in vaccinated but infected individuals. Information from PHE here: <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1000512/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_27.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiHlo2o9OrxAhUITsAKHcxCBJcQFjALegQIERAC&usg=AOvVaw3IyaP_uyAtSUK9uaFH08T3&cshid=1626552574389" rel="nofollow" target="blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1000512/Vaccine_surveillance_report-_week_27.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiHlo2o9OrxAhUITsAKHcxCBJcQFjALegQIERAC&usg=AOvVaw3IyaP_uyAtSUK9uaFH08T3&cshid=1626552574389

Cases are highest in younger age groups who are less likely to be vaccinated or have just had one dose. In contrast to the first two waves, cases are much lower in older age groups which have a higher proportion of double-vaccinated individuals - showing that the vaccine is working well.

There will still be lots cases of covid in double vaccinated people because it is not 100% effective at preventing infection - there are still breakthrough infections. That's not the same as vaccines being solely about preventing severe disease.

I don't think anyone is shocked that there is still some transmission. People are shocked at how high the rate of new cases currently is in the UK. Over 50,000 new cases in one day. In a few days, new cases will be higher than they have ever been and all people are talking about is freedom day. Currently, one in 90 people in Scotland have covid.

Think of it this way. The vaccines are not 100% at preventing transmission, but they are also not 100% effective at reducing severity, so if severity is reduced in 90% of cases, that still leaves 10% of cases where severity is not reduced, which with the crazily high rate of transmission at the moment means there are a lot of vulnerable people out there.

Friends abroad are horrified at what is going on in the UK, but friends in the UK just don't seem bothered and think everything is fine. There is such a disparity in feeling. Some areas in the UK have already started cancelling planned surgeries. The death rate is still low because the uptick in cases has just started but it will rise dramatically over the summer.