So confused and anxious. This virus and rules make no sense

[WineGetsMeThroughIt]

So help me make sense of this - because at the moment it makes no sense to me at all.

The numbers are rapidly increasing yet the government is continuing to remove almost all restrictions despite advice not to by the WHO.

Gov't is encouraging all adults to be vaccinated as it will create a "herd immunity" against the virus.

Gov't now saying you do not have to self isolate after travel or from coming in contact with someone with the virus if you're double jabbed? (I think I've understood that correctly?)

But....getting a double dose of the vaccine still doesn't prevent you from getting covid or getting incredibly ill. But just decreases your risk of dying?

So if you are double vax'd you don't have to isolate (even though you still may have got covid yourself from travelling or contact with another person but you just don't actually know). So technically you could be asymptomatic (or symptomatic for that matter) and pass the virus on to people.

Seems to me that the double vax'd get special privileges like travel, potentially restaurants, etc but can still catch and spread the virus just like an un-vax'd person??

I'm so confused by all of these rules. I have extreme anxiety about getting the vaccination due to so many reported (and many more unreported) side effects. I'm not at all anti-vax. I've had all my previous vaccinations and I've actually made 3 separate appointments to have the covid jab, but have had an anxiety attack before each one and never went.

I'm extremely uncomfortable with the way this vaccine causes period issues, ringing in the ears, extreme fatigue, heart issues, pins and needles in toes and fingers, swollen lymph nodes, covid arm and many more. I don't like the pressure the gov't is putting on us to get it, and feel like it's wrong because the vaccine itself doesn't prevent covid or spreading it. But yes I am terrible worried of actually getting covid myself and worse of all ending up with long covid. It's a constant anxious battle in my mind to get the vaccine and potentially battle with a whole host of side effects or not get it and get covid. Like with the vaccine and covid - I could be fine or I could not be fine.

I hate this world so much right now. I'm finding it so hard to cope with all the uncertainty and flip flopping back and forth.

@bumbleymummy

Long enough that they’re missing out on having to travel this summer after sacrificing so much this year. The virus really doesn’t care if someone is unvaccinated by choice or not.

And what is ‘a small number’ in your opinion? There are thousands of cases being reported in vaccinated people. Any one of those can pass it on to others. They really shouldn’t be getting special treatment if the intention was to prevent spread. It seems more about ‘punishing’ and coercing the unvaccinated tbh.

You've had it explained many times that those with double jabs have a lower viral load, so even if infected they are less likely to infect others. Overall the risks posed by those who are double vaccinated (+2 to 4 weeks depending on jab) are drastically lower than unvaccinated. That's why the balance of harms look very different for vaccinated people isolating than unvaccinated. You aren't being "punished", you're just being asked to try not to make others ill because of your own decisions.

Yes @SonnetForSpring how is it biased?
I think @Scottishgirl85 is 100% correct.
I realise that if you are immunosuppressed then it is a difficult future to face, however it is the future we all face and we have to find a way.
I also second what @scottishgirl85 said; that she was sorry that you are so anxious. Life has to go on, we can’t stay in lock down forever.

@BogRollBOGOF

The vaccine successfully reduces the risks of serious illness from Covid. It also reduces how contagious it is as a vaccinated immune system puts up a faster, better response than an unexposed immune system.

The vaccine is not without a chance of side effects, but these are broadly the same as the risks of being ill in range, and smaller in probility.

As much as I loathe the direction of political bullying and discrimination going on in Europe (and have little faith in the creep tactics of this government) in terms of access to services, in terms of isolation, the current contact policies are far more damaging to society and business than the illness itself for the majority of people and therefore there is less damage by easing the isolation policies for people who are of medically reduced risk of transmission and more severe consequences.

This is spot on.

The current state for example of our GP services is appalling. People with serious illnesses are being ignored. We need to open society up again, get people working, get children in school properly (not entire year groups sent home due to exposure), get people with heart conditions, dementia, cancer etc being properly treated and monitored once again.
Society, business and the economy and the mental health of our population requires us getting back to normal ASAP with the new understanding that covid is not going anywhere and we need to be sensible.

@mrex, as I’ve explained several times, lower risk does not = no risk. Not sure why people keep thinking they need to reply with, ‘but the risk is lower’ when I haven’t said it isn’t. But it still means that vaccinated people can put others at risk so shouldn’t be exempt from isolation/testing.

[quote bumbleymummy]@mrex, as I’ve explained several times, lower risk does not = no risk. Not sure why people keep thinking they need to reply with, ‘but the risk is lower’ when I haven’t said it isn’t. But it still means that vaccinated people can put others at risk so shouldn’t be exempt from isolation/testing.[/quote]
Numbers calculated together become big, or small. Small health risks are acceptable when there are economic and social downsides to alternative actions, big health risks aren't. Try this experiment; lift a tissue above your head and drop it; it's small and light so you're fine. Then try it again with a kitchen chair, whoops that's big and heavy, ouchie. Small and light versus big and heavy, leads you to different outcomes.

If it's long covid you are most worried about I would be getting the vaccine. If you look at the (generally minor and unusual) side effects from the vaccine vs the risk of long covid in 10%+ of people, it makes sense to be vaccinated. Especially with rising cases. Especially if you have any risk factors for long covid - anecdotally these seem to be being female, having existing autoimmune conditions, or having allergies or eczema.

The virus and rules make perfect sense - you now have to take the growing risk of being exposed to the virus. Better to take this risk post-vaccination where possible. The virus will never go away and the entire world cannot isolate from it forever. This government has chosen not to really isolate people from it any more, unless the people with it are likely to be particularly contagious due to their age and vaccination status. We now have vaccines and there is nothing more as a sustainable, long term solution that we can really do to reduce the risk of catching covid and getting seriously ill from it. If you are anxious about that, this is now being made your problem to deal with.

Your choices are, either don’t protect yourself at all; limit your life by avoiding things you feel to be unsafe, even if this means ending up unemployed; have the vaccine and then carry on as you want; or have the vaccine and continue to limit your life to a certain extent until more can be done to treat the disease, or until you personally feel safe to start doing more (or give up some things forever if necessary). Some people will die or be made seriously ill as a result of these decisions. The Government has not actually been coy about admitting that. There is no way of avoiding some people dying or getting seriously ill from something as a result of any decisions made. We live in the country we live in, so have to play with the cards our government is dealing us.

I don’t buy Boris’ now or never argument.

Why lift ALL restrictions now just as cases are rising?? Wait a bit longer until more people are vaccinated and cases start to fall when children aren’t at school.

Most things are open anyway, schools, restaurants, cinemas etc. Far more sensible to leave a few restrictions in place until case numbers fall again.

The Dutch government have just done a u turn and apologised for lifting restrictions too early.

I'm in France and I'm currently cancelling a holiday that was postponed from last year already to Portugal. Too bad and it doesn't really matter.

I did look into the rules at one point before we decided to cancel. Double vaccinated people can travel without doing a test. Anyone else needs a negative test.

Considering how many people seem to be catching covid despite being vaccinated, I think the travel rules are totally irresponsible. We don't actually know how likely or unlikely it is for a double jabbed person to catch and then transmit covid to others. So why are they exempt from testing?
It's the main reason for us not going. I don't want to sit on a plane with untested vaccinated people.

When everything opens up will be be able to visit our gp as normal again? If not then none of this makes sense.

Hi OP

I'm sorry you're anxious. The rules do make sense, Patrick Valance said at the last briefing that double vacced people are 50% less likely to catch COVID if exposed, and of those who do, they are 50% less likely to pass it on. (And they're obviously much less likely to need the NHS). That's a huge difference.

Lots of people are anxious about having the vaccine, myself included. But the best thing about having it in your situation is that the constant mental flip flopping will end. Once it's done, it's done, and your brain can stop the constant computing of relative risks ( it's a nice feeling :) )

@Scottishgirl85

Sorry to see you are extremely anxious, please seek help for that. Covid is here to stay, permanently. Everyone will face it at some point in their life, vaccination markedly reduces the chance of it being serious. It is time to open up and get on with living, with people taking personal responsibility rather than dictated by government. Covid is a risk amongst an infinite number of risks we face every day, try to keep it in perspective.

One of the first Covid-related posts on this forum that I agree with 100%.

Expecting those in authority to save us is both impossible now and, while understandable on some level, unreasonable.

@MRex

Your explanation regarding lower viral loads in the vaccinated is interesting

If a vaccinated person has a lower viral load then you could apply the same logic to unvaccinated asymptomatic people.

It's quite bizarre don't you think that an unvaccinated person can be asymptomatic and unknowingly walk around spreading the virus, yet if their viral load is not even high enough to show symptoms themselves then how on earth can it be high enough to infect others

This might suggest there's not a huge difference.

@Whyevencare - for some who are genuinely asymptomatic that might work, and there's a level of virus being picked up among vaccinated and unvaccinated that isn't high enough to be infectious. The issue is that many people spread covid pre-symptoms, so tests have been set up to catch them at this early point before they are infectious. Those with lighter viral load often don't have symptoms at the time, but get them later. Meanwhile lots more people have non-traditional symptoms early on; a headache or sore throat rather than the fever or cough. Those who haven't been vaccinated but test positive are more likely to have or to get to a higher viral load, because they are actually presymptomatic or have non-traditional symptoms. Norovirus spreads very well for similar reasons.

@Scottishgirl85

Sorry to see you are extremely anxious, please seek help for that. Covid is here to stay, permanently. Everyone will face it at some point in their life, vaccination markedly reduces the chance of it being serious. It is time to open up and get on with living, with people taking personal responsibility rather than dictated by government. Covid is a risk amongst an infinite number of risks we face every day, try to keep it in perspective.

I need to quote this post too.

Most sensible thing on here.