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British scientists and health professionals call against opening on the 19th of July

39 replies

roguetomato · 11/07/2021 09:44

OP posts:
Tealightsandd · 11/07/2021 17:01

putting life on hold

Yep. That will be the fate of the many Long Covid disabled.

Had we actually genuinely put life on hold for a short period - properly - this would have all been over with long ago, and there wouldn't have been a Delta strain.

Regardless, a few basic safely precautions (such as wearing masks in public) isn't putting life on hold. Quite the contrary. It helps with trying to open up in some way. No different to the wearing of seat belts, which doesn't stop you from driving.

NannyAndJohn · 11/07/2021 17:24

It's reassuring to know that there are some politicians on our side

mobile.twitter.com/RichardBurgon/status/1414210655117365248

But they won't be listened to.

Againstmachine · 11/07/2021 17:30

It's reassuring to know that there are some politicians on our side

Imagine all these lockdowns and stoppages and you think they aren't on your side.Grin

Namenic · 11/07/2021 17:36

What happened last time cases went up a lot - and the govt didn’t take action? Um - a really big 2nd wave - damaging to economy, education as well as health. I know there is vaccination now, but with some areas of nhs struggling even with vaccination, why open up even more rather than pausing? We already have a reasonable amount of freedom and economic activity. You can still have mitigation measures like masks and limits on numbers, test before events.

Non covid nhs backlog will increase as a direct result of the removal of restrictions.

Againstmachine · 11/07/2021 17:40

My problem is they are letting loads of sporting events go off, so they can get stuffed with any future restrictions as they knew what would happen.

screwcovid · 11/07/2021 17:44

Zzzz

Quartz2208 · 11/07/2021 17:50

Being cynical I really cant see them retracting this for the short term anyway.

It is clear that a proportion of the population dont agree with releasing the restrictions so are likely to modify their behaviour. This suits the government as it is restrictions by stealth - enough people are going to modify their behaviour and those who dont would probably not follow the restrictions now anyway. And the best part of all of this is you no longer need furlough because there are restrictions and you dont need to pass anything through Parliament and risk a back bench rebellion.

All parcelled up under the umbrella of personal responsibility. It is the way the US is going as well.

Trust that the vast majority will get vaccines. The majority will be sensible with masks etc and make good choices.

SlipperyDippery · 11/07/2021 17:51

@SonnetForSpring

Scientists are not asking for lock down. Are people so stupid, they still don't understand. We have lockdowns because politicians are too slow to adapt to the virus. Scientists are arguing for sensible precautions not lockdowns!!!!! Lockdowns are the result of failed government strategy!!!!!
It’s incredibly rude calling people “stupid” for not agreeing with you.

There are a number of epidemiologists, eg Neil Ferguson, and Chris Whitty who isn’t exactly gung-ho seems to agree, who say that delaying opening up will have marginal benefit and will make things worse in terms of the peak being in autumn/winter. If you don’t agree that’s fine, but implying those who have a different view to you and “stupid” and “I don’t understand” is a really poor show given there is a genuine disagreement amongst scientists about it.

Earlydancing · 11/07/2021 18:10

@roguetomato

I thought what they are all saying really make sense and sensible. No one wants restriction forever, it's matter of when.
But when is when? When all adults have had 2 jabs? When all chikdren have had 2 jabs? When everyone has had a booster? What happens if a new variant comes along, do we all wait to see how transmissible it is? Wait to see how effective the vaccines are? Wait for a booster to cover it? It could all go on forever.

And with all respect to Dr Campbell, who seems a pleasant chap, @Indigopearl, how many businesses depend on what he says? How many businesses depend on all businesses opening? How many jobs depend on what he says? How many mental health crises is he going to deal with for people who have no income and no home? Is he going to put his hand into his pockets to pay mortgage payments, rents, utility bills etc? Would all these scientists and doctors be saying the same thing if their jobs were at stake, not just now but in the future too?

Health considerations are not the only consideration in these matters. If saving lives was the only thing that mattered, we'd be banning cars, smoking and alcohol tomorrow. But we accept these things are part of life. The economy has to be tended to as well

I'm all for keeping masks, I hate them but I'll wear them for the good of the community, but businesses need to be able to open fully. Shops and pubs and eateries are not going to survive if they have to carry on limiting numbers. Who of the scientists are standing up for them?

SonnetForSpring · 11/07/2021 18:17

SonnetForSpring

Scientists are not asking for lock down. Are people so stupid, they still don't understand. We have lockdowns because politicians are too slow to adapt to the virus. Scientists are arguing for sensible precautions not lockdowns!!!!! Lockdowns are the result of failed government strategy!!!!!

It’s incredibly rude calling people “stupid” for not agreeing with you.

There are a number of epidemiologists, eg Neil Ferguson, and Chris Whitty who isn’t exactly gung-ho seems to agree, who say that delaying opening up will have marginal benefit and will make things worse in terms of the peak being in autumn/winter. If you don’t agree that’s fine, but implying those who have a different view to you and “stupid” and “I don’t understand” is a really poor show given there is a genuine disagreement amongst scientists about it.

If you have been paying attention to what has happened over the last 2 years, its obvious. So sorry but I do think its stupidity to not understand that scientists are not calling for lockdowns. Our government keeps locking down due to their own failures.

Earlydancing · 11/07/2021 18:27

They might not be calling for lockdown but they think, because they're not economists,and they don't own businesses, that all businesses are up and running normally and keeping mitigations at this level won't affect them. Wearing a mask or keeping a window open is neither here nor there.

Chessie678 · 11/07/2021 19:20

@herecomesthsun
On the economics side, while I agree that the spread of covid itself would have an economic affect so absolutely you can't consider the economy and health in isolation, we haven't actually tested the premise that society would grind to a halt under the burden of disease if we hadn't locked down and no European economy (except possibly Sweden) has tested this either. They have all locked down before seeing what would happen.

I think it's very unlikely that for European economies, the economic consequences of not locking down would have been worse than what has happened to the economy (except possibly if a zero covid approach had been taken and this had worked and been maintained, which is a very big if).

If you close a pub for 6 months it makes no money and has ongoing costs. If you let it open but trade is depressed due to staff sickness / people being nervous to eat out etc. it still makes some money. And around 25% of people in the UK have had covid anyway so it's not like we have completely avoided the issue of lots of people getting covid.

And in any case epidemiologists are not the right people to advise on the economic consequences of covid restrictions. The Chancellor has always been fairly anti-lockdown and I trust him more on economics than epidemiologists.

@SonnetForSpring

Epidemiologists have consistently called for a greater degree of lockdown at almost every point in the last 15m. Ferguson considered and essentially recommended the key policies of lockdown in a paper in March 2020. There is maybe a semantic issue as to what counts as a lockdown but I would call not being allowed to see family inside and hospitality businesses being closed "lockdown" and that has been the case for much of the last 15m. Many epidemiologists wanted us to spend more time in stronger lockdowns than we had.

Now many, though not all, epidemiologists are calling for some degree of restrictions to continue. I suspect they are not calling for full lockdown again because they know there is currently no political will for it.

But are you suggesting that covid could have been controlled by non-lockdown measures alone if we had acted quickly enough? If your alluding to the idea of closing the border the minute the first case of covid was found and then isolating anyone infected, then I suppose I understand the argument, but there is no scientific consensus that that would have been possible in the UK or effective at preventing covid from spreading. Even Australia has had multiple lockdowns.

As for the idea that other mitigation measures should remain in place now, what is this intended to achieve? Cases are growing fast with these measures in place so the measures are not keeping R below 1. Is there reason to think that wearing masks on public transport (say) will actually reduce overall case numbers over a period of time or will it just push cases into the winter (which is what Whitty seemed to be suggesting). Would the current wave peak at roughly the same number of cases regardless of how fast case numbers grow or would it peak higher if we drop masks in a week's time? Or quite possibly it will make no difference at all because public transport and shops are not the main place that covid is spreading relative to hospitals, private households, schools and masks are not particularly effective. These are really complicated issues and it isn't stupid to have a different view on them.

SonnetForSpring · 11/07/2021 19:27

The ridiculously long and harsh lockdowns we have had in England are due to government incompetence and failure of strategy. If you can't see that I don't know what else to say. You are confounding a lot of different issues and ignoring the point I am making. The economy has been more hurt be lockdowns than restrictions. Look at other economies who have had much less damage. Its really not hard to see, the evidence is there.

herecomesthsun · 13/07/2021 12:42

We have got into a pattern of late drastic lockdowns because of a Canute-like refusal to contemplate unpleasant realities (that's assuming that this chaos wasn't planned)

Working more closely with scientific advice might have had a better outcome.

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