School bubbles going. More testing - how will that work for primary school children?

[Tiddlywinkly]

Just that really. Plans will be announced today for a more 'proportionate' response to cases and close contact isolation. Testing will probably be cited as the way to achieve this.

I've had to get my 5 year old tested twice due to him displaying symptoms and it was truly horrendous. We both ended up crying. I'm just wondering if the government will have thought of young children in their plans. I guess if we can't perform the tests they'll have to isolate? Any thoughts?

@MarshaBradyo

We still don’t know impact of vaccine on Long Covid do we?

Not saying it’s necessarily good but it may improve situation from here

Not for kids. No vaccines for them, despite it being trialled and approved and being rolled out in other countries.

Yes see further post on children

Whitty said JCVI can’t rush it. Would people like another timescale on decision?

"Can't rush it" is just code for kicking it into the long grass and hoping people stop asking about it.

There's literally no reason to delay, which is why they haven't given one. They aren't waiting on trials, research, anything.

I'm sure parents will blame schools if the rates of Long COVID in children go up

@Iamnotthe1

"Can't rush it" is just code for kicking it into the long grass and hoping people stop asking about it.

There's literally no reason to delay, which is why they haven't given one. They aren't waiting on trials, research, anything.

They are looking at international data

Did you listen to Chris Whitty at briefing the other night?

But that's precisely the point. Throughout the entire vaccination programme, Government ministers have gone on and on about the speed, the efficiency, getting it done compared to other countries, world leader, etc.

Now, when it comes to 12 to 17 year olds, even though the vaccine has been proven effective and safe, it's "oh we'll wait and see what happens in the other countries doing it."

How does that make sense?

Will people even test kids though in the first place ? I have only tested when they've had a cough or similar which means they'll be sent home if in school. So will that be an issue still ? As most kids seem to have it mildly or asymptotically?

@Iamnotthe1

But that's precisely the point. Throughout the entire vaccination programme, Government ministers have gone on and on about the speed, the efficiency, getting it done compared to other countries, world leader, etc.

Now, when it comes to 12 to 17 year olds, even though the vaccine has been proven effective and safe, it's "oh we'll wait and see what happens in the other countries doing it."

How does that make sense?

Did you listen to Chris Whitty?

He made a lot of sense on it. The risk balance is different for children so safety profile needs to be even higher. Which most would want anyway.

But if you missed it he probably says it more clearly than I can

Children very rarely suffer any negative consequences from Covid. Most are wholly asymptomatic. Very rarely but they may get sick but they also may do from flu in very rare cases.

By September teachers and school staff will all be double vaccinated. Maybe they'll have chosen to fly on planes or go to festivals or exercise their freedom in other ways over the summer.

The harms of subjecting children to regular LFTs and all the restrictions, lost education and mostly the anxiety that causes can't be justified when weighed against the very low risks for the vast majority of young people.

I really don't want my child to be afraid of a virus that is hugely unlikely to have any negative consequences for them and to think that sticking a cotton bud up your nose twice a week is just a normal thing that people do. We are going to breed a generation of massively health anxious risk averse people.

Hand washing, ventilation even face masks in corridors I don't mind about as just sensible precautions against all infections but anything that disrupts their lives like bubbles, social distancing from friends, isolations, bans on school trips and plays and sports days from September I want that all to end as I just cannot see how it can be justified any longer. The harms of this stuff are outweighing the harms of Covid by now. The measures were necessary and I agreed with them but now they are not and we need to step back.

I saw it. The risk profile is different which is why AZ isn't an option. The risk of death from the AZ vaccine is higher than the risk of death from covid, although this completely ignores long covid. But Pfizer, as is being used in other countries, absolutely is an option.

I understand what he is saying; I just think it's Government influenced rather than being the independent voice it should be.

@Iamnotthe1

"Can't rush it" is just code for kicking it into the long grass and hoping people stop asking about it.

There's literally no reason to delay, which is why they haven't given one. They aren't waiting on trials, research, anything.

I suspect the UK isn’t top of the list for further deliveries of MRNA vaccines. We may have enough on order (I’d have to check) but we were relying heavily on AZ.

There is another UK vaccine but I haven’t been following its development.

@Iamnotthe1

I saw it. The risk profile is different which is why AZ isn't an option. The risk of death from the AZ vaccine is higher than the risk of death from covid, although this completely ignores long covid. But Pfizer, as is being used in other countries, absolutely is an option.

I understand what he is saying; I just think it's Government influenced rather than being the independent voice it should be.

It’s an option but the data still needs to be assessed. Pfizer has had some issues in young men for example.

Personally I trust Chris Whitty enough to listen to what he says, but others won’t.

I don’t mind if it’s vaccine or not based on their recommendation due to assessing data. As long as isolation, which does bring known harms, stops.

I have seen credible reports of Pfizer causing myocarditis in young men

I am not sure that all parents will be so enthusiastic about vaccinating their young children anyway. I am 100% pro vaccine for DH and I and all adults, maybe OK with DD (14) who says herself she wants it but I am just not convinced the benefits outweigh the risks for DS (10) who isn't capable to make his own decision.
Perhaps I am influenced by the fact that DH and I both had COVID and DC appeared asymptomatic despite our close contact. I have no idea if they didn't get it or if they just had no symptoms.
I don't feel I can justify even a very small risk of a serious vaccine side effect if it's not clear that Covid is actually any risk to them.

I would have them vaccinated to avoid their education being disrupted but the same could be achieved just by vaccinating adults and (and maybe any ECV children whose parents consent to it) and just stopping testing and isolating kids unless they have obvious symptoms themselves.

There have been some studies out of Israel suggesting Pfizer caused myocarditis in a small number of teenage males. In the vast majority of cases, it was a minor illness lasting around 3 days before clearing.

Even if we said that was enough not to administer Pfizer to over 12s, which no country who started, including Israel, has said, the Johnson & Johnson vaccine has been shown in the US not to cause the same myocarditis.

Long covid had the potential to become a real problem in younger age groups, as admitted by Chris Whitty. This will be especially true if this group rely only on natural immunity as a result of infection and end up with some children being reinfected again and again and again.

credible reports of Pfizer causing myocarditis in young men

For this exact reason I'm happy to wait for further data on this before vaccinating my 2 ds. I'm glad the JCVI are taking the time with this, I'm in no rush at all to be making this decision

@Iamnotthe1

There have been some studies out of Israel suggesting Pfizer caused myocarditis in a small number of teenage males. In the vast majority of cases, it was a minor illness lasting around 3 days before clearing.

Even if we said that was enough not to administer Pfizer to over 12s, which no country who started, including Israel, has said, the Johnson & Johnson vaccine has been shown in the US not to cause the same myocarditis.

Long covid had the potential to become a real problem in younger age groups, as admitted by Chris Whitty. This will be especially true if this group rely only on natural immunity as a result of infection and end up with some children being reinfected again and again and again.

Cdc (USA) has also reported the myocarditis

They can fuck off. I will not be doing any testing on any of mine. Nor ourselves.

Apologies, yes the CDC have also found the same and concluded, like Israel, that that does not merit not using Pfizer as part of their risk analysis for 12s and over. They are continuing to vaccinate using it too.

As I said before, they've also looked at Johnson and Johnson and found no similar reports so we could be using that even if we decided not to use Pfizer.

But how significant is the benefit to my child? Rather than just him contributing to herd immunity? I am not convinced he is at any significant risk of serious complications so why would I take any risk on vaccinating him?

Long Covid we know very very little about especially in children. CFS after glandular fever/ EBV and other viruses has always been with us. Will 'Long COVID' be any different or distinguishable from that?

Doesn't J&J have the VIPIT issue like AZ?
Not convinced I'd take that risk on behalf of my child either. I Would for myself certainly as my risk from Covid in my 40s outweighs my risk of VIPIT but I am not convinced I could say that for my child

Are you suggesting that something similar to CFS isn't issue enough? A long-term, potentially life-long, condition that affects people on a daily basis and causes some to have to completely change or limit their lives in order to function.

iSAGE estimates that the numbers needed to reach temporary herd immunity amongst children could result in up to half a million cases of long covid. There are children already who have been left with life-long illnesses and conditions as a result of contracting covid. Not protecting children on a national level is the Government being short-sighted at best.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

Doesn't J&J have the VIPIT issue like AZ? Not convinced I'd take that risk on behalf of my child either. I Would for myself certainly as my risk from Covid in my 40s outweighs my risk of VIPIT but I am not convinced I could say that for my child

No, it's a different type of vaccine.

www.healthcarefinancenews.com/news/cdc-sees-more-blood-clot-cases-linked-johnson-johnson-vaccine

J&J and AZ are very similar both adenovirus vector vaccines

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

But how significant is the benefit to my child? Rather than just him contributing to herd immunity? I am not convinced he is at any significant risk of serious complications so why would I take any risk on vaccinating him?

Long Covid we know very very little about especially in children. CFS after glandular fever/ EBV and other viruses has always been with us. Will 'Long COVID' be any different or distinguishable from that?

You posed some interesting questions so I looked up chicken pox cases in the UK and apparently we see about 600,000 per year (across all groups). I suspect that if we were seeing similar numbers of chicken pox cases over the past year the chicken pox vaccine would be in demand despite most of us not being concerned enough right now to pay for a vaccine and the majority of children being okay with a mild infection.

I don’t know if I would want my dd(5) to have a covid vaccine but I can definitely comprehend a circumstance where the balance falls in it’s favour.

So are bubbles being stopped? My DD primary school said they can't enrol her for breakfast club as they can only have 1 bubble?