Radio 4: Professor of Paediatrics urging caution about idea of vaccinating kids

[SquawkSquawk]

Prof Adam Finn (Bristol University), professor of paediatrics and vaccine expert, has spoken out about how it may be best to not vaccinate children. I believe he's worked on some relevant trials, as well.

From yesterday's Radio 4's Today Programme, from 49 minutes in:

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000w5hb

Does he say why? Don't have time to listen right now... thanks for sharing!

@Schulte it's mostly about how it may well not be necessary to control the virus. Doesn't talk specifically about any risks, but the ethical side of vaccinating children when it may well not be needed. Interestingly, I think he may have worked on the kids AZ trial which was halted, and I believe he has some pharma links, so it's good that he's chosen to go on the record saying that kids' jabs may not be needed.

That's interesting, thank you! I will try and find the time to listen to it properly.

Seems that, whichever topic you pick, you can find a professor to give you whatever view of "the science" you want.

Then they wonder why we don't obey "the science". Which science? The one spouted by Prof X or Prof Y?

Or maybe I will make my own decision based on what I have to hand now.

In 20 years time when "the science" has gathered enough data to reach a consensus and stop flipflopping back and forth (and perhaps resolving a few scandals and coverups along the way), they can tell me what I should have done 20 years ago.

"Evidence" and 1200 page academic reports look in the rear view mirror. Here in the real world, people are having to make decisions now

It never makes sense to give someone a medication they don't personally need. Given that there have been some very dangerous and fatal side effects of the vaccines, on balance it may not make any sense to give them to children - potentially the personal risk to them will be higher from the vaccine than from covid itself. One child vaccine death would be very very bad PR for vaccination as a whole and could have serious knock on effects not just for the covid vaccine but for others too.

Essentially if there's any danger at all that medication can kill you, you should only take it if the benefit to you is greater than the risk of not taking it. That benefit/risk calculation is already a tough one for people between 18 and 40 - depending on the long term outcome of the vaccines and the total number of deaths from clots and other reactions it may turn out that benefit of the vaccine was very limited. But for children there really isn't any justification for it - putting a child at any risk from a vaccine is just not warranted.

Prof Finn was being very cagey because he didn't want to say that the covid vaccinations are dangerous medications that have killed people.

That's certainly one interpretation, @TheDailyCarbunkle. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more people who've been involved in trials stepping up and speaking out against vaccines for children. There will probably be lawsuits at some point, and many will want to be on record urging some caution.

Reasonable assessment TheDailyCarbunkle.

Prof Finn has spoken before about the ethics of giving a vaccine for which there is no long-term safety data to children, who are known to be at small risk from covid.

I think the poster above is right, that there will be lawsuits in future for vaccine injury and experts are going on record now as having doubts.

I sometimes think Britain has become a communist country.
I'm very, very glad he has spoken as candidly as he can about this.

Unless clinically vulnerable, very, very few children get sick from covid nor transmit it. So why on earth would they need it?

Medical treatments are for the individual not for some 'greater good'.

We'd do well to remember that.

I’m very pro-vaccine normally and DH and I have both had our first dose of Pfizer. However, I absolutely won’t be allowing my toddler to have this jab. We don’t know what the long term side effects of the vaccine could potentially be, and the risk of Covid to my DC is absolutely tiny.

I haven't heard anyone talking about vacinating normal healthy toddlers - I think they planning 12+ in Wales - though main attraction I can see for majority in this age group is less educational disruption.

It's not clear they'll go ahead with the plan - and the risk/benefit analysis would have to be in favour and with low rates not sure it will be though they are vaccinating children in US so should have plenty of additional data as well as trial data fairly soon.

I thought I would vaccinate DS8 ASAP due to his asthma but he’s just had Covid with no symptoms at all.
He gave it to me - fully vaccinated- and I had mild symptoms.
My priority will be boosters for all the adults in my family over vaccinating him, he’s now fought the virus once so his immune system will remember it.
I won’t be anti vax for him when he’s older but not now, until it’s fully tested.
I am not anti vax in any way, in fact I’m a Covid vaccinator and paid for DS to have Men B and varicella jabs privately.

The rationale for covid vaccines in children is the same as for flu. Children aren't particularly at risk from flu, but are vaccinated because they're super spreaders - so it's for the benefit others really, not them.
I appreciate that the flu vaccine has been around a while and is well tested though.

Unless clinically vulnerable, very, very few children get sick from covid nor transmit it

Your first point is true. On the second-did you see the schools in December ?

There is not a chance that anyone will force me to vaccinate my children with any of these vaccines. They have had their childhood vaccines but I don't care how much anyone guilt trips me, 'it's for the greater good', my children will not be having an experimental vaccine for something that does not even impact their age group.

If chickenpox could be caught over and over again, I'm sure kids would be vaccinated against it to stop them spreading to adults.

I would vax dc.
However the gov have definitely shown to be untrustworthy in terms of jabs for adults. Particularly the 40+ age group. Re AZ. As they /the bodies have known or not been able to rule out the vipit issues. And even now are not offering the over 40s a different jab.
So i do have some concerns.
Mainly if a child is vaxxed will they be able to change to a different brand later
Does it prevent transmission ie outbreaks in schools
Will it enable them to not isolate/test longer term
Will it prevent long covid (more specifically lung issues or t1 diabetes.
It might affect entry into other countries or insurance
So really it's a waiting game to see what happens with these issues with adults.

I think it is more important to vax the kids because so many adults will not have been vaxxed/effective in that it will continue to spread and over time many kids will end up with LC.
If they open it up to kids then it's up to the parents.
Many of us have lots of vulnerable family.
My parents are 70+
My pil 65+
Gpil over 80.
It would be nice to not be so concerned every time dc has a cough

But yes also how often boosters are needed will also affect. As if there is even a tiny risk then xby the number of jabs in a lifetime.

I’m no expert personally but I follow a fair few paediatricians on Twitter. Most of them are of the same opinion as Prof Finn as regards vaccinating children - very wary of this in the main from an ethical perspective.

If chickenpox could be caught over and over again, I'm sure kids would be vaccinated against it to stop them spreading to adults

Again, I’m no expert but was under the impression it was actually the opposite - rationale for chicken pox vaccine not being offered on the NHS is to protect the adult population against shingles later in life? And because vaccinating kids en masse would make older non-vaccinated adults more vulnerable? Might be mistaken though...

There is also that someviruses eg chickenpox have consequences later in life cancer/shibgkes etc and live on inside you even if you get it via a vax.
However it seems unlikely at the moment many unvaxxed kids would avoid catching it so will have the virus anyway. (In the uk as no masks for kids etc)
Also as this is the case even more reason for parental choice as we cant avoid exposure for them.
Also how many cev children will there be.
So many gps pick up kids from school.
Eg last week a gp picking up kid at normal time and teacher saying - theyve been compaining of a stomach ache....

Possibly the benefits of definitely avoiding another lockdown with school closures would make it enough benefit directly to kids.
Also if numbers did rise surely one of the first things to shut would be things kids do?
If they vaxxed down to age 12. Would the unders be prevented from doing things if there were large outbreaks as they are more likely carriers (than the say 90+ % vaxxed adults.
also who is going to want to potentially isolate every 6m because your kid has covid again. (Even if they remove it down to just the actual child).
And potentially up to 1/3 vaxxed adults in the house will test positive too.

I’ve heard similar expressed from some vaccine tsar (not sure of her name but it was a lady interviewed on radio 4). She said that you generally don’t vaccinate people who aren’t at risk of a virus unless there’s plenty of evidence that it would stop the spread and it’s very very safe. So flu vaccine meets the criteria but at the current time covid vaccine would not. It makes sense really. Having a dc who had an allergic reaction to a vaccine and had covid asymptotically I probably wouldn’t be queueing up to vaccinate them. Dh and I very glad to have had ours though.

I sincerely hope the BBC, Question Time and Fiona Bruce apologise to the young woman who appeared on there several weeks ago and asked about 12 year olds having vaccines. She was laughed at and dismissed ..........by everyone.

I’d be waiting for proper trials personally.

I have a lot of friends and family in the States and the last fortnight those with 12+ have been posting photos on social media of them getting vaccinated.
On one hand, I feel a bit jealous every time I see a new photo. Especially as ds 13 is currently home isolating because of exposure.
On the other hand, I've been thinking I'm glad so many other children will have received this vaccine before mine will, so that there's time to see if it's ok.

@hennybeans

I have a lot of friends and family in the States and the last fortnight those with 12+ have been posting photos on social media of them getting vaccinated. On one hand, I feel a bit jealous every time I see a new photo. Especially as ds 13 is currently home isolating because of exposure. On the other hand, I've been thinking I'm glad so many other children will have received this vaccine before mine will, so that there's time to see if it's ok.

mNRA is copletely new technology you will have no idea if its safe for years after. If you look at what happened with mNRA in making SARS and coronavirus vaccines (read the actual studies yourself not some 'debunked' bs article that twists words and leaves out important information) When you see what happened to the animals you may not want one. The fact that Pfizer did not publish the results from the animal trials from this vaccine says alot and I dont understand how that is legal. My child will never be given this