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Help me explain Pfizer for young people to DH

24 replies

SpaceOp · 08/05/2021 20:14

DH is a bit dubious about the Covid vaccine but has had his first shot, as have I. However, we keep getting into arguments because he thinks we should not have been offered Astra Zeneca because of the blood clot issue and doesn't understand why young people are being offered Pfizer. He is very concerned that the risk from AZ is very high and would rather not have had it at all.

I have tried to explain it as it being about lowering risk overall. That for older people, the risk from Covid is high enough that the risk from the Astra Zeneca vaccine is so much lower that it is worthwhile. However, because young people are less at risk from Covid, the risk from the AZ vaccine is less of a differential. And therefore they're being offered Pfizer.

But he feels that if AZ is a riskier vaccine, we should all be offered Pfizer and he doesn't understand why people who are less at risk from Covid are being offered a less risky vaccine. I argue that sure, in a perfect world, that would probably be true, but that we don't have enough for that and that the massive reduction in risk from AZ is the game changer and that it's about lowering the risk for the population overall.

He doesn't understand and I don't seem to be able to explain it. So can someone please help me find a way to express this better? Ultimately, he's not comfortable with the AZ risk and doesn't seem to be able to understand that it's a lower risk than Covid.

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SpaceOp · 08/05/2021 20:15

Oh, and I've seen graphs that show the statistics, but google is not helping me find them again.

OP posts:
toodleloooo · 08/05/2021 20:41

I think you've explained it perfectly well. The risk to young people from covid (in the sense of hospitalisation/death) is very low, particularly now that cases are so low. The risk from the vaccine is also thought to be low but comparatively slightly higher on balance. For older people the risks from covid go up and are thought to be higher than with the vaccine.

TheFuckThatIGave · 09/05/2021 07:09

He really doesn't understand that different things have different risk levels?! Not sure what else you can say to that...

NailsNeedDoing · 09/05/2021 11:21

I agree you have explained it well, it sounds like he doesn’t want to understand. It’s all about balancing risk. When the risk of covid is low for young people, it’s not worth taking the risk of a vaccine that can cause clots. When the risk of covid is high, it’s worth taking a higher risk with the vaccine to prevent the possible consequences of covid.

Tbf to him, he has a point. If there is a vaccine that carries lower risk of side effects, then we should all be offered that in an ideal world. We don’t live in an ideal world though, and while most of the world’s population are desperately waiting for any vaccine and supply can’t yet keep up with demand, we have to take what we’re offered or decline.

Your DH has every right to decide that for him personally, the AZ vaccine isn’t worth the risk.

AppleJane · 09/05/2021 12:45

Some people are not comfortable with the over 50s being told they are a higher risk group therefore they can have a higher risk vaccine at a time when covid levels are low and summer is approaching.

Liliolla · 09/05/2021 13:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Wigeon · 09/05/2021 16:07

Agree your explanation is already good. However, it’s not just that older people are far more at risk from severe harm from Covid, and therefore the risk/benefit calculation falls in favour of having AZ rather than not having it; they are also less likely to get the serious blood clots. So that tips the risk/benefit equation even more in favour of keeping giving older people AZ.

Secondly, we don’t have infinite supply of any vaccine. We need to use all the vaccine we have secured, and this means making clinical judgements on who should have which kind, if information comes to light about different brands’ effects.

Thirdly, Pfizer is a pain in the neck in operational terms - it’s a lot harder to get from the manufacturer into people’s arms. For example, it can’t be moved into care homes and to housebound people, whereas AZ can. And the benefits of AZ far far outweigh the tiny tiny risks for older care home residents.

Wigeon · 09/05/2021 16:08

Some useful graphics! Source: Winton Centre for Risk & Evidenxe communication, Cambridge University

Help me explain Pfizer for young people to DH
Wigeon · 09/05/2021 16:09

And for those with medium risk of exposure

Help me explain Pfizer for young people to DH
anniegun · 09/05/2021 16:12

@Wigeon

Some useful graphics! Source: Winton Centre for Risk & Evidenxe communication, Cambridge University
This is quite helpful to show the relative risk across ages. However I would point out the Covid risk illustrated is when the virus in circulation is low and only covers a 16 week period. So there is a danger that this underplays the Covid risk
anniegun · 09/05/2021 16:12

sorry didnt see the second graph

Wigeon · 09/05/2021 16:14

Argh - just double checked and they’ve just update these graphs on Friday! Ignore the last two screenshots - here is the latest. And they say:

“We've added a new slide for 'very low exposure' which is based on current incidence of the virus in the UK. Just remember that vaccination benefits keep adding up for every week of protection, which will be longer than the 16 weeks we illustrate. The potential harms are 'one off'“

Help me explain Pfizer for young people to DH
Help me explain Pfizer for young people to DH
TruelyWonder · 09/05/2021 16:17

I would probably just stop having those conversations with him of you have already told him the facts.

My husband and I have different political views. Not a million million apart but still vote differently. We just don't talk about politics to each other. That makes for a peaceful life.

FictionalCharacter · 09/05/2021 16:18

If it really was high risk it would have been withdrawn. Does he accept that?

Wigeon · 09/05/2021 16:19

Twitter link here

This screenshot shows “high exposure risk”

Help me explain Pfizer for young people to DH
ErrolTheDragon · 09/05/2021 16:19

They look like useful graphs for demonstrating risk/benefit ratios. Are there similar graphs/statistics available for any of the other types of vaccine yet?

Wigeon · 09/05/2021 16:21

“Medium exposure risk” screenshot

Full article about these graphics from Cambridge, which might help you with conversations with your DH, OP.

Help me explain Pfizer for young people to DH
GlutenFreeGingerCake · 09/05/2021 16:22

Does it matter if he understands, they won't be asking his opinion.

SpaceOp · 09/05/2021 16:27

Thank you all. it's reassuring to know that my explanation is not gobbledy gook but does make sense. I did find versions of these graphs eventually via The Times website which I sent him.

@FictionalCharacter I think that's basically the problem. In his head, ANY risk means they should be withdrawn and I think he thinks that the government is playing a bit fast and loose with the rest of us. His view is that we shouldn't be taking any medication that has a risk unless there's absolutely no alternative option and because he doesn't really think he's at risk from Covid, therefore he sees the vaccine as increasing HIS personal risk. which I can sort of understand - he had covid, and got through it.

Of course, this is not entirely new. I have spent YEARS convincing him to take his anti hay-fever meds the way they say you should - ie proactively and pre-emptively. He refused for years to take them unless he was actually suffering, by which stage the hay fever would be so bad it was debilitating. Research shows that pre-emptively taking meds for people like him is helpful, but he sees it as just shoving unnatural things into his body.

So it's not entirely unsurprising that he's struggling so much with the vaccine.

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Wigeon · 09/05/2021 16:41

Well, in everything we do in life, we weigh up the risks vs benefits, and in this case he has, incorrectly, exaggerated the risks of the vaccine, minimised the risks of Covid, and persuaded himself that the balance falls to not having vaccine.

Would he be persuaded by the altruistic argument? There is increasing evidence that the vaccines reduce or stop transmission significantly. So, the risks of the vaccine to him are tiny, but he is protecting elderly and more vulnerable people by having it.

I think this is another important factor you have to consider when deciding whether to have the jab. It’s different to his hay fever medication reluctance, given the only person who suffers us him (well, and probably you, OP! 😆). By the way, I find Beconase a wonder for hay fever, and I only start taking it once symptoms start. But then I keep taking it daily as it takes a few days to build up, and usually take it fit the 6 weeks or so my hay fever usually lasts.

FictionalCharacter · 09/05/2021 17:51

@FictionalCharacter I think that's basically the problem. In his head, ANY risk means they should be withdrawn and I think he thinks that the government is playing a bit fast and loose with the rest of us.”

I often see people saying they don’t trust “the government” about this. What about all the people involved who are not the government? The doctors, scientists, academics who have put massive work into studying this and concluded it’s a safe vaccine, the benefits vastly outweighing the risks? Are they all somehow corrupt, or wrong or mistaken? All of them the world over?!

I do feel strongly about these accusations. I work in a uni where we do Covid research including vaccine development. The researchers (many are clinicians as well) have been working unbelievably hard, so much so it’s affected their health in some cases. Then they see anti-vax stuff on SM and all sorts of nonsense about how there’s no virus, no pandemic, the Govt wants to kill people, hospitals just want to make money etc. I’ve been called a “government shill”. It’s pretty depressing.

I fear you may not be able to persuade him, but if he could learn to understand relative risk (as per the charts posted by @Wigeon) that would be something, even if he still decides not to get the 2nd shot. There is no medicine, vaccine, or treatment of any kind that is risk free. There are many, many medical interventions that are way more risky than this vaccine. No vaccine or treatment has ever had such publicity and discussion on SM, including widespread misinformation, and perception of the risks has become very distorted.

SpaceOp · 10/05/2021 09:44

[quote FictionalCharacter]“@FictionalCharacter I think that's basically the problem. In his head, ANY risk means they should be withdrawn and I think he thinks that the government is playing a bit fast and loose with the rest of us.”

I often see people saying they don’t trust “the government” about this. What about all the people involved who are not the government? The doctors, scientists, academics who have put massive work into studying this and concluded it’s a safe vaccine, the benefits vastly outweighing the risks? Are they all somehow corrupt, or wrong or mistaken? All of them the world over?!

I do feel strongly about these accusations. I work in a uni where we do Covid research including vaccine development. The researchers (many are clinicians as well) have been working unbelievably hard, so much so it’s affected their health in some cases. Then they see anti-vax stuff on SM and all sorts of nonsense about how there’s no virus, no pandemic, the Govt wants to kill people, hospitals just want to make money etc. I’ve been called a “government shill”. It’s pretty depressing.

I fear you may not be able to persuade him, but if he could learn to understand relative risk (as per the charts posted by @Wigeon) that would be something, even if he still decides not to get the 2nd shot. There is no medicine, vaccine, or treatment of any kind that is risk free. There are many, many medical interventions that are way more risky than this vaccine. No vaccine or treatment has ever had such publicity and discussion on SM, including widespread misinformation, and perception of the risks has become very distorted.[/quote]
I agree with everything here. DH has some family members who are convinced the pharma industry is keeping cancer cures away because they make so much money off the cures that don't work. I find this mindset bizarre because never mind anything else - whoever finds a cure for cancer can make zillions! But also, it's impossible for me to believe that all those doctors and researchers and specialists, not to mention the massive support network around them, are all in on some giant conspiracy to make money off the deaths of millions. In my experience in a large corporate, even just getting three people to consistently be on the same page is almost impossible! Grin.

So I hear you. 100%.

I do think it's the relative risk thing. And to be fair to DH, this is something he struggles with on a daily basis. He has had to work really hard because, for example, in the past, he'd be almost paralysed for days because he would have been doing something with DS and then realised that if x or y had happened, Ds could have died and he'd spend literally days agonising over it. But x or y would have been the kind of freak accident that's so rare as to not be part of a normal person's thinking. He realised he was being silly and it was negatively affecting him and he's put tools in place to help prevent this kind of catastrophising.

But I think it's a family trait. Many of his extended family, including his parents, are naturally distrustful and pessimistic. I broadly get on with his family but there have been moments where I've had to just completely ignore his parents or be actively dismissive because they will say/do/think something that's not even slightly based on any kind of real facts. Put it this way - it's a very good thing that his parents are not on social media.

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PlanDeRaccordement · 10/05/2021 10:01

You’ve explained it correctly, but so has he. Neither of you is wrong, he’s just more risk averse than you are. So to him, the comparison of Covid risk vs AZ vaccine risk is only half the story because he sees the issue as different vaccine risk vs AZ vaccine risk.

FictionalCharacter · 10/05/2021 15:10

@SpaceOp Ah yes, “they don’t want to find cures because.....” . People don’t stop to think that “cures that don’t work” would never get licensed so would never be used. There are failed clinical trials all the time. And when a new, better treatment is discovered (cure is not usually an accurate word) it quickly gets a big share of the market and supersedes older treatments. So the incentive to invent better treatments is clearly there, both financial and moral. That should be obvious! But I’m constantly disgusted at the accusation that the whole medical profession is knowingly giving people treatments that don’t work.

Surely people can see that vaccines (which are usually cheap) disprove this? Almost all medics are enthusiastic about vaccines, and there is undeniable evidence, many decades’ worth, that they vastly reduce infectious diseases that would otherwise be extremely expensive to treat. The docs and pharma companies could ditch vaccines and make lots of money from drugs, surgery, diagnostics and whatnot for the likes of polio and tetanus! HUGE research effort is going into preventing TB which is a massive, costly worldwide health problem. TB treatment is costly and pharma companies will lose a lot of revenue if it’s wiped out. But they’ll just move on to the next project.

Good to hear your DH acknowledges his catastrophising. Shame about his family but ultimately all you can do is ignore them to save your own sanity.

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