If I refuse AZ which vaccine am I likely to get?

[DandelionSprout]

AZ jab is currently available to book but there are the obvious concerns. It sounds like J&J has similar problems. My GP said Pfizer for 1st doses is literally non-existent, Moderna is only available at a few selected sites and in small amounts, and Valneva won’t be rolled out for months. So if people refuse AZ what alternative are they realistically likely to get?

WELL

Talk is that when they start to roll out Autumn Booster Jabs, we'll be potentially getting a different vaccine which works in a different way to the one we got first time around because they think this may give the best protection.

They are currently asking for volunteers to start a trial on this.

That means that if you are desparate to avoid one vaccine because you can't understand that the risks are tiny (and they wouldn't offer it to you in the first place if that wasn't the case), then you might have some difficult decisions (multiple) to make.

You are unlikely to be able to simply select your vaccine at all. (The NHS are not recommending allowing a choice - unless you are in that 18 - 29 age group). So you'll have to either wait until everyone's done and see what gives OR you'll have to track down a vaccination centre that is giving out the vaccine you want (maybe get a 'spare' dose without an appointment). And you then might find that come the Autumn you may have to decide whether you are going to avoid a booster completely.

I find it difficult to have sympathy on this. Just have a bloody vaccine and stop being fussy. Lots of people around the world would love the chance of this dilema. The risk is miniscule. Or decide not to have the damn thing and quit moaning.

@Timeforredwine

Spoke to gp today, he said all under 30s will have moderna, pfizer only for 2nd doses , everyone else now astra zeneca.

Your GP should probably refresh their knowledge. There are lots of us over 45s that had moderna today in this thread alone

@mumwon

Look please understand it isn't anything that is wrong with the vaccine its a really rare autoimmune reaction to it - a similar rare reaction to heparin. For a few unfortunate people virtually any vaccine or inflammation or infection could cause this - but covid has a much higher risk not only of death but blood clots across various parts of the body causing many issues some life threatening some affecting quality of health & life. The thing is this -by understanding that for some people there might be a risk & the symptoms hospitals doctors & clinicians will be able to look out for them & treat them. By all means talk to doctors & your chemists etc to understand the risk to you & what are the symptoms

Thank you for the voice of reason here @mumwon. I've been avoiding threads about the vaccines because I'm really scared of having it but didn't know this was the reason for the issues. This helps me understand so thank you.

The U.K. position is in line with the EU regulator as well as the MHRA. It is not out of step. Other countries made different decisions for whatever reason but they might have a) less risk of COVID b) more availability of other vaccines or c) just be making a political decision about what their population will or won't accept (France)

The under 30s decision was taken not because of any judgement on the relative value of a life (FFS) but on the balance of risks. The risk of dying of COVID outweighs by a country mile the risk of these very rare blood clots and since the risk of COVID increases with age it stands to reason that the balance is in favour of having any licensed vaccine including AZ in your 40s.

If you don't accept that reasoning it's fine. You refuse and you wait for further availability of alternatives or private availability. Government's responsibility is to weigh the actual
risk vs benefit and firm policy on that basis. They are not required to offer people a preference.

You should accept what you are given, and consider yourself lucky.

@DandelionSprout

if you have no medical reason to not have a specific vaccine I do have a medical reason not to have AZ. I don’t want a blood clot. Other countries recognise the risk and have decided that younger people won’t have AZ. The UK for some reason is going against everyone else and telling me that AZ is my only option. Why am I worth less than a 29yo?

What medical condition is this because the scientists would love to know whether there is a heightened risk due to certain medical conditions because they have absoluetely no evidence of this.

The blood clotting issue with AZ is not typical. Its not thought to affect people with a medical history involving clotting.

Honestly what is the actual scientific basis of this claim because I'd love to see your source or know whether you are listening to and spreading disinformation.

What medical condition is this
It’s called “I don’t want to die and no other country is giving this vaccine to people my age”.

When Europe are in the midst of a 3rd wave our decision to press on with our vaccine programme might look like a very good one.

People are sick of the harms of lockdowns too. There are all those indirect harms to mental health, obesity, poverty and non Covid clinical care to consider for the government as well as the direct harms of Covid vs the vaccine.

When taken in that context I can see why they want to avoid another lockdown and the country is on their side on that. Vaccination remains our best way to get back to the old normal and slowing the programme so as to be very cautious about a tiny risk is not what most people want when it means risk of a 3rd wave increases.

None

I get why vaccination is a good thing from a public health perspective. But from a personal perspective I’m not suffering any harm from lockdown. So for me my individual safety comes before broad social benefits.

@DandelionSprout

What medical condition is this It’s called “I don’t want to die and no other country is giving this vaccine to people my age”.

But the medical regulators in the UK and EU who decide if its safe are saying what?

Learn the difference between politics and scientific opinion.

Learn how to understand risk statistics and made up your own mind from that.

Its a lot better than deciding not to have any vaccine and putting yourself (and others) at far more risk of blood clots.

shrugs

Your choice but no I don't think its helpful nor realistic to expect you should have a choice of vaccine. Mainly because ANY vaccine is safer than no vaccine and this is what the regulators are saying and I trust them a hell of a lot more than a bunch of politicians.

@DandelionSprout

What medical condition is this It’s called “I don’t want to die and no other country is giving this vaccine to people my age”.

Also this response pretty much says

"I don't have a medical condition I can name as relevant because I have no data to share stating that I am at increased risk."

Instead of being rational I'm going to act in an emotional way which is not how you make good decisions based on facts.

OP, you would do well to visit the bbc sounds website and see if you can find a recording from the Adrian Chiles show on 5 live - I think it was the Tuesday after Easter Sunday.

It was an interview with a lovely lady, whose brother had died from a clot following the AZ vaccine - suspected to be linked to it.

She had given the interview having heard all the concerns about the vaccine to urge people to take it up. She is a pharmacist so clearly able to understand the risks, despite having such sad personal experience.

You can have Sputnik

Ffs take the vaccine...I say that from someone with a history of blood clots..that's the reason I was prioritised as I have scarring on my lungs from a pulmonary embolism.

If the risk was high I'm pretty sure an early 30s healthy woman wouldn't have been offered the jab!!!

I had my first dose on Friday just passed. I’m 45. Will admit I was a little uneasy about the potential for AZ, but completely willing to take whatever was on offer as I’d rather be vaccinated than risk COVID. Pfizer was what I got and I was advised Pfizer will be what I get for second dose too. You just get what’s available on the day I guess.

For you personally it's true that on current knowledge (and things change every day) you would probably be best off having Pfizer or Moderna to avoid the 1 in a million risk of dying from VIPIT.

However your risk from AZ is hugely outweighed by your risk from Covid so if your choice is any vaccine or no vaccine it makes sense to have AZ if you are over 30 purely from your own personal risk perspective

The government has drawn the line where it has drawn it on the basis of expert scientific advice in line with the WHO and the EU regulator as well as the MHRA and it has no obligation to offer to mitigate a risk for you personally that it deems very insignificant

You are entitled to make your own weigh up but it's not unreasonable of the government not to offer you that choice on the basis of its own risk assessment.

If you feel lockdown does you personally no harm and a 1 in a million risk is not one you are prepared to take them you decline and you wait for your choice to be available or to be available privately.

This stuff happens all the time
There is rationing. We can't always have what we want only what is deemed necessary.
My mums cancer treatment wasn't approved by NICE for her situation. Costs outweighed benefits they said. We accepted that as a family, did our own weigh up all chipped in and paid privately. She died anyway so I guess NICE were right after all.

My point is the government are entitled to distribute a scarce resource as they see fit and they cannot support everyone's individual idiosyncratic choices.

I would have rather had AZ in fact because I am suspicious of big American Pharma companies and the not for profit approach AZ took fits my value system more but that is clearly not a choice that the government needs to support me in so I stuck out my arm and had what I was offered.

2 other points
One of the people who died was a middle aged (or a bit older) man & his sister said (& I will repeat this ad infinitum) please take the vaccine - she was upset because the hospital missed it - NOW you may understand the importance of education & this small risk of something like 0.00whatever% or less of being ill of sadly dying lower than that -
Another point dh actually has chronic ITP & has had it for years he also takes aspirin for heart condition - he had had AZ & will have the next one - with this & his (many)other conditions covid would kill him the small tiny risk miniscule risk of this doesn't compare to the chance of living a normal life.
Op please read what I have said - I have read everything I can to understand this & I include journal articles peer reviewed -
Even Pfizer
www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/91813

Also imagine if it came out in 2 years time that if you had Pfizer you had an increased risk of dying of the MadZombie Variant of Covid.

My point here is we don't know lots here. We only can assess on what we do know. And decide on balance risk based on that.

& the biggest known factor is that covid IS dangerous & does have serious side effects & you are exponentially more likely to get them from covid than ANY vaccine

I think it's a very fair point
If in 2 weeks time someone discovers that there is some 1 in a million risk from the Pfizer or Modena one then all the angst will start all over again directed in a different place.

On a thread last week people assured me J&J would be safer because loads of people have had it in the US. This week that seems not to be true. It's an evolving picture

What we can say for pretty sure is that whatever comes up has to be very rare or it would have come up in the trials. And if it's so rare it wasn't seen in trials then it's rarer than death from Covid which was seen in trials.

You have more risk of a clot on the pill, and that is widely known and accepted.

Yes it is, and that's why certain people at increased risk DO NOT GET OFFERED the pill. They have no idea who is more at risk from the blood clot with these. Also, different type of clot with much, much higher mortality rate.

Even when we have a low risk rate of Covid (as we do now) the risk/benefit calculation is already in favour of the vaccine in your age group.

I'm kind of bored of reading this, too. They don't know what the risk/benefit calculation is because they have no fucking idea what's going on. A fortnight ago they said people who'd taken the AZ vaccine had less chance than the general population of having a clot. Today they say the risk is at whatever level but don't know what's causing it or why. God knows what they'll say in a fortnight.

OP, I suspect that when more deaths are reported, they'll have to change the plan re AZ.

The lady who sadly lost her brother to this AZ clot gets so much sympathy from me, but is really not an important source. It's totally her right to feel people should or shouldn't get their vaccine (everyone has their opinions) but it's not based on any science (yes I know she's a pharmacist - the people who invented the vaccine don't know why it's causing this or who is more at risk so she definitely doesn't).

I had AZ on Saturday (43 no underlying), really really didn’t want to but I guess I just felt pressured and that I’d like to fly/have a babysitter sometime soon!!

My nervousness wasn’t AZ specific it was any vaccine. Because let’s be honest the numbers and knowledge at this point is bollocks. There is going to be rare side effects from all of them, but AZ is known here as it’s the most used one. I actually think old tried and tested tech Vs new completely untested on a major scale may suffer less issues as the kinks have been ironed out. So AZ and J&J May ironically over the longer term possibly prove to be safer who knows. Maybe balanced out by AZ never making vaccines before. It’s all unknown.

The under 30s and you her female issue is also a bit bollocks as it’s skewed by the fact more younger females have been vaccinated due to their front line caring roles. Where there is a more even split and more usage this isn’t actually played out biological sex wise.

It’s all a risk, you just need to decide if covid Vs vaccination is the risk you are willing to take, choosing a specific vaccination is just a false sense of being able to control an unknown outcome which is humans like to do!

Also another reason I stuck my arm out, shut my eyes and just did it on Saturday is because I was, like most people, afraid of putting something foreign in my body and suffering the after effects.

Then I logiced I got hammered the night before at a garden gathering, took paracetamol to feel better, I take vitamins that I haven’t checked the source of, and had a course of foot fungus tablets once that could have killed my liver. I fly and I drive and a I ride horses and I take whatever medication I need when I need it. I’ve been drunk, stoned and happily tripped around foreign countries full of less than desirable bugs, people and food hygiene.

Yet not once did I consider the consequences or google the latest stats on dying of Delhi belly, or bug bites or aspirin or antibiotics.

We have been scared into overanalysing everything and convinced death no longer is inevitable until we are old in our beds. It’s hugely unhealthy.