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COVID-19: an overview of the evidence

139 replies

savethegrannies · 09/04/2021 21:54

www.hartgroup.org/covid-19-evidence/
Key take-away: "The data is in: lockdowns serve no useful purpose and cause catastrophic societal and economic harms. They must never be repeated in this country."

OP posts:
thatonehasalittlecar · 11/04/2021 20:19

“There is no such thing as free speech unless it doesnt go with the MSM and government narrative.”

This doesn’t make sense.

But if you’re trying to say ‘there’s no such thing as free speech unless you agree with the MSM / government’, you’re wrong.

There is such a thing as free speech. You can say whatever you want, with a few caveats around hate speech.

But no-one, not You Tube, Google, MN, FB, is required to host anything they don’t want to. They are private entities and entirely at liberty to kick anyone they want off their platforms.

‘MSM’, whatever that means, is also entirely at liberty to interview, publish or quote anyone they want to. If you are talking bullshit and unable to provide evidence for that bullshit, no-one is going to waste valuable column inches.

Be better at critical thinking, evidence sourcing and analysis, then people might want to listen to what you have to say.

thatonehasalittlecar · 11/04/2021 20:21

And you have absolutely no idea about my views on lockdown, so you wouldn’t know if I agreed with you or not, would you?

MercyBooth · 11/04/2021 20:22

@borntobequiet

I was merely pointing out to the OP that by using emotive language she could expect to not be taken seriously

Ah so the only ones allowed to do this and be taken seriously are the Government.

Their campaigns, posters backtracking and the way they have behaved is psychologically abusive. People have told me it isnt but their posts wont age well. Just like the attitudes towards HIV havent aged well over time. Still there is always the NC function on here to hide their hypocrisy.

MercyBooth · 11/04/2021 20:36

@RafaIsTheKingOfClay

If that’s Boris you are talking about, I think it’s the public that gave him legitimacy at the polls. I doubt we’d be in this position with a different prime minister. And it’s not like Witty and co can get rid of him

If Whitty or Valance etc disagree with the way Boris handled/is handling things, they can always resign and speak out
a. they have other jobs so they wont exactly go rocketing to the food bank!!
b. Im sure the media would give them plenty of air time if they resigned and spoke out.
Im sick of the excuses being made regarding this.

MercyBooth · 11/04/2021 20:43

@AcornAutumn Totally agree with your posts
And im also sick of the internet and apps being touted as the answer to everything.
Its made certain quarters very lazy and given them an "out"

TheReluctantPhoenix · 12/04/2021 07:37

I think free speech in moral debates is imperative. I am far more torn when it comes to science.

The Hart group are a rag tag group of a few ‘scientists’, pretty much all from ‘new’ universities, who have chosen, for one reason or another, to dissent from the best and brightest from around the World.

I do agree with the point made above that, especially in the biological sciences, where it is impossible to control confounding variables, you will get scientific dissent and debate. However, we do have good statistical techniques to examine data, and when 95% of top scientists coalesce around a viewpoint, you either have to respect them or, ideally, read what they say and see if it makes sense. To do this, however, you do need a basic understanding of maths and statistics (A levels would do to at least understand the arguments).

There is so much evidence that has been linked to showing that lockdowns are the only realistic response to a pandemic both in terms of health and economics.

In addition, we have seen in April 2020 and Jan 2021 what happens with too much contact: hospitals get overwhelmed and organisations close. Many many schools closed because of staff sickness despite being ‘allowed’ to stay open.

Pandemics do damage in many ways, health, economy and psychology. This is a given. Our responses can mitigate this but, of course, like anything, they also have negatives.

savethegrannies · 12/04/2021 12:31

@thatonehasalittlecar

I’m not calling you stupid because I don’t agree with you, I’m calling you stupid because you lack the ability to critically evaluate sources and credible experts.
You see, with posts like this you simply sound arrogant and pompous. How do you know I lack such ability? You know absolutely nothing of myself and my background. Nothing. Would you call me - or others - stupid to my face? I think not. Seriously, grow up and learn to debate with people without resorting to petty insults.
OP posts:
thatonehasalittlecar · 12/04/2021 13:17

I would rather be pompous and arrogant than stupid. You think it’s embarrassing to call someone stupid; I think it’s embarrassing to be stupid.

Never the twain shall meet.

savethegrannies · 12/04/2021 13:21

"I would rather be pompous and arrogant than stupid."
I rather suspect you are all three thatonehasalittlecar Biscuit

OP posts:
thatonehasalittlecar · 12/04/2021 13:32

Yes, but you also rather suspect your OP was factual.

😆

Nappyvalley15 · 12/04/2021 14:08

Looking at the authors of the main sections I can't see why someone would dismiss them as a 'ragbag' and from 'new universities' (a weird comment in itself). They look to me as mostly medics and established academics. Dismissing them as authors seems to be designed to sidestep the need to engage in their arguments.

I am not saying this report is perfect. It is a summary, written in an accessible way which is probably intended to start a discussion and break up some of the current groupthink. I think it is worth reading.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 12/04/2021 14:29

@Nappyvalley15,

So which ones are meaningful scientists or mathematicians with a strong grounding in epidemiology (and still working in the field)?

Nappyvalley15 · 12/04/2021 14:33

The report is about the impact on society. We need experts from a range of fields to assess that. That is something that has been missing from this pandemic response all along.

Nappyvalley15 · 12/04/2021 14:36

For example there are chapters on the impact on young people and on the economy. The authors are much better qualified than an epidemiologist to discuss these.

savethegrannies · 12/04/2021 14:42

As somebody pointed out on another thread, one could post all the evidence they wanted and abour the negative impact of lockdowns, pros being outweighed by the cons etc. It won't change a thing. People are incredibly entrenched in their views and so will desparetely seek ways to discredit them.

OP posts:
Cornettoninja · 12/04/2021 14:58

People are incredibly entrenched in their views and so will desparetely seek ways to discredit them

....and confirm them. There’s very little neutrality out there.

thatonehasalittlecar · 12/04/2021 15:02

The Hart group have an anti-lockdown, anti-Covid restriction agenda. They cherry pick papers that they believe support this view, on occasion misrepresenting or ignoring the science within. Scientists on whose papers they’ve based their opinion pieces have even complained about being misquoted.

This article contains some specific examples, there are plenty more for those of you scientifically literate enough to understand the source material.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scientists-condemn-report-questioning-role-of-vaccine-in-second-wave-deaths-75rltw3qg

You can pretend it’s all a big conspiracy and that scientists are being silenced, but you just end up looking stupid. Members of the Hart group are most often quoted in the Daily Mail, (one of?) the world’s biggest news sites. Hardly silenced.

You know who else thinks it’s all a big conspiracy and that the ‘scientific consensus’ is really a big cover up for some nefarious grand plan? Climate change deniers and anti-vaxxers. Another group of people too stupid to evaluate evidence and establish credible sources.

Nappyvalley15 · 12/04/2021 15:31

Thanks for the times article. I think the press around all of this will look a little different in a year from now when we can look back with a more balanced view of the whole response to covid in the UK.

savethegrannies · 12/04/2021 16:37

Another interesting piece for those interested: www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/304124
I'm now ignoring all the posters who have no reasonable response other than to hurl insults. As I say, would they do that in real life? Would they hell. It's pathetic.

OP posts:
thatonehasalittlecar · 12/04/2021 17:10

I would not shy away from telling someone how stupid they were for peddling conspiracy theories and supporting anti-vax, anti-science nonsense IRL, @savethegrannies

savethegrannies · 12/04/2021 17:17

@thatonehasalittlecar

I would not shy away from telling someone how stupid they were for peddling conspiracy theories and supporting anti-vax, anti-science nonsense IRL, *@savethegrannies*
Anti-vax? Conspiracy theories? Anti-science? What thread are you actually reading? You're just making things up now and embarrassing yourself in the process.
OP posts:
thatonehasalittlecar · 12/04/2021 17:33

Not embarrassed in the slightest.

Aren’t you supposed to be ignoring me? 😆

Sparrowcrane · 12/04/2021 23:20

People, we need a meaningful debate not shut qualified opinions up! Any opposing views to the the way covid was managed were quickly suppressed and banished from mass media since the start of the lockdowns in 2020. There are also other professionals who try to speak out and beg for a review of the measures but they are being ignored. Those who think that these people are in pursuit of some conspiracy or agendas, considering a lack of proper review and debate, do you not think that there is a very strong reason to think otherwise?

Northernsoulgirl45 · 13/04/2021 00:41

Attached list of HART members and their speciality in case anyone is interested.

COVID-19: an overview of the evidence
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