No antibodies after AZ vaccine

[Wbeezer]

My parents are 80, they both had there first jabs about thre months ago and have been participating in a survey for the ONS, they get swabbed every two weeks to treat for infection. Testing for vaccine antibodies was added to the last visit and loo and behold they have no antibodies post vaccine. I'm a bit upset about this was looking forward to just maybe risking a hug or two but no way now. What does everyone think? Do you think they will get an improvement with the second jab?

Sorry about typos

Maybe. Hopefully. The percentages do increase between the two jabs. If not, hopefully they'll find out through the next testing and can ask the GP for advice. Unfortunately someone has to be in the small percentage who don't build antibodies.

I thought antibodies were detected via a blood test and not by a swab? That's how it is usually.

Did they have actual blood tests because as far as I know that’s only only way they can detect antibodies.

ONS is doing antibody tests - but these are not done with a swab. They are done with a blood sample.

@MRex

Maybe. Hopefully. The percentages do increase between the two jabs. If not, hopefully they'll find out through the next testing and can ask the GP for advice. Unfortunately someone has to be in the small percentage who don't build antibodies.

It's a small percentage yes but isn't it statistically highly unlikely that two people in the same house would not have antibodies?

Hi Op

There is more to the immune system than the presence of antibodies. It may be that your parents have acquired a degree of immunity through their T-cells.

I hope that reassures you :)

" It may be that your parents have acquired a degree of immunity through their T-cells."

Would that have been via the vaccine?

Not really. 72% having Pfizer get antibodies after the first dose meaning 28% don't, which is 1 in 4 and elderly people have been shown to have slightly lower efficacy on average. Assuming even distribution, 1 in 16 couples would have neither getting antibodies. That's one of the reasons why people have been asked to keep social distancing even after their first jab and why so many of us talk about the need to vaccinate as many as possible to achieve herd immunity. (Not getting at you, I know you have unusual health reasons why vaccination could prove particularly risky.)

ONS are now doing fingerprick antibody tests along with the pcr swab testing so this is what OPs parents will have had.

I've just done a quick Google about testing for antibodies after vaccine and it says to wait until after 2nd dose as there is no clear evidence available about whether antibodies are detectable after the first dose.
They may have had a Tcell response though, did they check for that as well?

@bobbiester

ONS is doing antibody tests - but these are not done with a swab. They are done with a blood sample.

This. And...

Antibody tests detect a type of protein in the SARS-CoV-2 virus called the N-protein. This protein is not found in most COVID-19 vaccines. So even after having a COVID-19 vaccine, in most cases there will not be an antibody response against the N protein, and an antibody test will be negative. The antibody test is used to detect if you have had the actual disease.

This may be a bit technical but is the simplest explanation I could find on a quick google search... theconversation.com/covid-vaccines-focus-on-the-spike-protein-but-heres-another-target-150315

Did they have any jab side effects.
I think uk is reporting 50% now have antibodies from eith infection or vax.
My parents are 70s so yes it's a worry the vax may just not work.
On an individual level it would be good to test so at least you are aware it hasnt worked as it will affect behaviour.

Do you actually know what they have had or do they just think they have had an antibody test?

We are 74 and take part in the same ONS surveys.

We get tested once a month by throat and nostril swabs, for covid infection. With each test we answer numerous questions about type, place and number of social contacts. All results negative so far (month 5)

ONS have recently asked the existing swab testers if we are willing to ALSO provide a monthly blood sample to test for antibodies (over 12 months) . First sample done last week Haven't had the result yet.

If our antibody result is zero, there are at least 3 possible reasons

     We have never had covid
     Our first vaccinations  did not stimulate enough antibodies to score
    The blood sample or test  failed in some way.

The whole point of the blood tests being repeated every month for a year, is to measure antibody fluctuations in the population . From that the researchers can track the extent of covid spread (with and without symptoms), the effect of vaccination, how long vaccine protection lasts; how long immunity lasts after covid infection.

  I'm very surprised your 80 yr old parents have only had   their first vaccination, and 3 months ago. They should have had the 2nd by now.

Do you know the exact figure? I did an antibody test after my jab (the correct one that tests for antibodies produced from vaccine) and there is a range of values - am thinking maybe there were some but not at a level that would count as a positive?

(I did have good antibodies - also very little reaction to jab, just saying as some mention that)

The antibodies produced against the vaccine are S (spike) anitbodies so it's a different test to the one for an infection. ONS may well be testing for both (this is to the PP who said vaccine ones wouldn't be picked up.
When did they have their vaccination(s)?

Antibody tests detect a type of
protein in the SARS-CoV-2 virus called the N-protein. This protein is
not found in most COVID-19 vaccines. So even after having a
COVID-19 vaccine, in most cases
there will not be an antibody
response against the N protein, and
an antibody test will be negative. The antibody test is used to detect if you have had the actual disease”.

Not sure that this is entirely correct. I’m in a research study. The information I was given (Imperial College) is that the test can potentially demonstrate both the N and S proteins. S - most likely from the vaccine, N - most likely from having Covid. I had both, which came as a bit of a shock as I’ve had one dose of the vaccine but am not aware of having had Covid!

The information also stated that the antibodies may be there but not at a level sufficient to trigger a positive test, and I’m not sure if it measures T cells at all?

the elderly are less likely to make antibodies than younger people but I don't know if age has the same effect on t cells. However even without the presence of antibodies which only last a short while usually, tcells will be ready to attack as these are the memory cells of disease. And yes you do gain tcell immunity from a vaccine. That what they are for.

Thanks for all the info, I'll pass it on, my parents are retired doctors so should manage to understand even the more technical stuff! They are getting second jabs next week (we're in Scotland so slightly behind). Any mistakes in my original posts are not caused by my parents being doddery but by the fact that my Dad kept wandering to far from the home hub during our WhatsApp call and cutting out so i missed the odd phrase and filled in the blanks.

Remind them stats are 76% dose 1 but over 90% dose 2.

@Wbeezer it was asked upthread and I'd be curious to know too; did your parents have any vaccine side effects?

No they didn't (and joked about that meaning it hadn't worked!) whereas I felt grotty for a week.

My father, 76, is part of a similar study only with Pfizer. He's had both jabs but no antibodies either.
However, he said the team said not to worry about this result (I don't know why).

Another one here in a research study doing antibody tests. They are testing for both the N and S antibodies. Six weeks after one dose DH had the S (vaccine) antibodies and I did not. I'm 63 with several underlying conditions, he is 71 and no health issues.
Neither of us had any vaccine side effects.
I'm awaiting results of this month's blood test with some trepidation as I desperately want antibodies!
I asked the research team about it and they weren't interested, I got the impression it's just a statistical exercise to them. My consultant who is not involved was reassuring in that antibodies aren't the whole story.

@2bazookas

We are 74 and take part in the same ONS surveys.

We get tested once a month by throat and nostril swabs, for covid infection. With each test we answer numerous questions about type, place and number of social contacts. All results negative so far (month 5)

ONS have recently asked the existing swab testers if we are willing to ALSO provide a monthly blood sample to test for antibodies (over 12 months) . First sample done last week Haven't had the result yet.

If our antibody result is zero, there are at least 3 possible reasons

     We have never had covid
     Our first vaccinations  did not stimulate enough antibodies to score
    The blood sample or test  failed in some way.

The whole point of the blood tests being repeated every month for a year, is to measure antibody fluctuations in the population . From that the researchers can track the extent of covid spread (with and without symptoms), the effect of vaccination, how long vaccine protection lasts; how long immunity lasts after covid infection.

  I'm very surprised your 80 yr old parents have only had   their first vaccination, and 3 months ago. They should have had the 2nd by now.</div></div>

The vaccine is less efficient in older people because the immune response is weaker as you age.