Septic Sceptics how the anti lockdown folks got it so wrong and poisoned the debate.

[vera99]

A comprehensive and polemical account of how the poisonous right wing tributaries of 'truth' got it so wrong and are so unable to do a mea culpa and have so poisoned and contributed through their half baked half assed opinions a rational evidence based response particularly in the vital early days and the September/Christmas debacle that we have one of the highest death rates in the world. the-free-press.co.uk/2021/01/26/septic-sceptics-toby-young-allison-pearson-and-the-art-of-being-wrong/

Other classic claims from Sunetra Gupta...

• September 2020 - 50,000 cases a day in new wave implausible.
• January 2021 - New variant unlikely to be more transmissible.

Another classic dump and run thread by the OP.

I would also have more respect if the adherent pro lockdowners actually acknowledge some of the associated risks, (individual level). There stance is doing different damage to the 'open everything up' stance.

Luckily, most people fit someone in the middle, but you can not expect an extreme group to emerge as a result of the extreme views of the other.

'their'

Don't type when getting ready.

@bobbiester

The 3 "experts" were all recruited by the American Institute for Economic Research (also known for climate change denial) to produce the declaration.

They are fringe figures on issues relating to COVID-19 and the declaration has been condemed by the World Health Organisation.

Sunetra Gupta in particular has been provided catastrophically wrong - again and again - throughout the pandemic.

She was telling us that in the UK we were almost at "herd immunity" back in March 2020!! And again in April, and May, and June, and so on and so on. Wrong again and again and again.

Here you go - in March 2020 Gupta was telling us that half the UK had already had COVID at that point..

www.ft.com/content/5ff6469a-6dd8-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

And here she is again in July 2020 telling us again that we'd almost reached "herd immunity"

reaction.life/we-may-already-have-herd-immunity-an-interview-with-professor-sunetra-gupta/

When someone is repeatedly wrong, and lives are at stake, you need to stop listening to them.

And Dr Fauci told us we’d be on cruises in March and back to normal by May ... of 2020.

He got it wrong. Should we stop listening to him?

Shall we get into Neil Ferguson’s ridiculous models? Or all these other epidemiological models that made ridiculous claims that never came true?

Everyone was wrong in last spring.

Also, do read that July article, the headline and article are quite different. It’s actually a very interesting article so thanks for linking it!

Btw, here’s the more nuanced text below the headline:

A study produced by a team at Oxford University indicated that some parts of the United Kingdom may already have reached herd immunity from coronavirus. A significant fraction of the population, according to the study published last week, may have “innate resistance or cross-protection from exposure to seasonal coronaviruses”, making the proportion vulnerable to coronavirus infection much smaller than previously thought

Read beyond the headlines pls

@Whatisthisfuckery

Lol, don’t you just love being patronised by someone who doesn’t know how to use punctuation?

I dont use punctuation on mumsnet

Doesnt mean I dont have anything to say and it’s certainly not a reflection on my intelligence or ability to use ‘clever’ words

A study produced by a team at Oxford University indicated that some parts of the United Kingdom may already have reached herd immunity from coronavirus.

Would that study be authored by a certain Gupta, S. by any chance.

I suppose one of her studies has to be right eventually.

This idea that if we only erase this voice here and that voice there we could have a better debate is such a slippery slope. Not all voices are worthy of consideration but, in the absence of meeting a threshold for hate speech, then there needs to be room for all views to be expressed.

@ChameleonClara

The anti-lockdown view just isn't credible after a year of watching it be the only thing that brings death rates down.

Lockdowns have brought the deaths down, if you cut off society this will happen. Like if you take cars off the roads there would be no car accidents. Lockdowns were supposed to be a short term solution but seen as were in our 3rd lockdown the argument is whether they are sustainable.

We have over a 100,00 deaths who have tested positive for Covid despite if Covid actually contributed to their death.
The mean age of a death of Covid is 80.

The anti lockdown view is that lockdowns which are having drastic economic, mental, educational effects of all age groups and the working population is not a proportionate reaction to this virus which has 99% survival rate without a vaccine which is a very credible view.

@UsedUpUsername

Lockdowns aren’t necessary and the media will catch up to that point of view (if it already hasn’t).

The WHO essentially threw out decades of research on this for a disastrous social experiment. You can still read their older papers where they argue against lockdowns, makes for good reading.

LInk to those "older papers" please.

Link

@Whatisthisfuckery

Lol, don’t you just love being patronised by someone who doesn’t know how to use punctuation?

Does this type of comment benefit anyone or help the thread remain interesting?

@DuchessofHastings1 you post is just the regular covid-sceptic stuff, there are a small percentage who think as you seem to but it is just misinformation and conspiracy theory.

This has all has been argued many times before.

Clara I got the impression those posts slating punctuation and the OP were because posters wanted to disagree with the OP but can’t actually bring themselves to post a defence of Laurence Fox or Toby Young so had to scrabble about for a different way to express disapproval.

Other people are attempting to bring the argument round to disagreements between scientists rather than whether it’s a good idea for Toby Young to be given airtime (on anything, tbh).

No one actually wants to defend the targets of the article and OP.

The most recent wave in the UK saw peak cases of 68k on January 8th. The most recent wave in the USA saw peak cases of 309k, also on January 8th.

Leaving aside the coincidence of those dates (which for me already suggests there's more to this than lockdowns), since Jan 8th both countries have seen substantial decline in numbers. The USA has not had lockdown measures anywhere near as strict as the UK.

So if we're to believe lockdown is necessary in the UK, how have they managed to bring cases down in the USA?

If the lockdown ardents had admitted that lockdown came with risks and that plans were in place to manage these risks then it is likely that the anti-lockdown ardents would have found a gap. The head burrowing and fingers in the ears has led to this.

Thankfully most people sit somewhere in the middle, but it is a shame we can't hear from those more. I can see why lockdown is needed but also be very concerned about the wider negative effects.

[quote ChameleonClara]@DuchessofHastings1 you post is just the regular covid-sceptic stuff, there are a small percentage who think as you seem to but it is just misinformation and conspiracy theory.

This has all has been argued many times before.[/quote]
Misinformation from the national statistics?

Seems like anyone who doesn't agree with lockdowns are conspiracy theorists and are idiots.

Yeah the mental health rates of both adults and children sky rocketing, businesses crashing, redundancies, lack of education, teenagers not bothering going to uni to teach themselves, children falling behind in school is all just us anti lockdowners having a right old grumble.

mobile.twitter.com/the_brumby/status/1349478829002133506

Heres about 20 reports on the effectiveness of lockdowns.

There's absolutely NO point in arguing with those who deny lockdowns, deny the threat of covid, pretend the GBD is not a GBL (Great Big Lie).

Anyone who thinks Lawrence Fox or Toby Young has ANYTHING to say worth listening to is beyond psychiatric help and should be sectioned.

Do you argue with a psychopath, or do you shoot them before they can harm you?

@oldwhyno

The most recent wave in the UK saw peak cases of 68k on January 8th. The most recent wave in the USA saw peak cases of 309k, also on January 8th.

Leaving aside the coincidence of those dates (which for me already suggests there's more to this than lockdowns), since Jan 8th both countries have seen substantial decline in numbers. The USA has not had lockdown measures anywhere near as strict as the UK.

So if we're to believe lockdown is necessary in the UK, how have they managed to bring cases down in the USA?

The USA has had varying degrees and timings of lockdowns on a state by state basis. It's not true to say that they have brought down cases without.

@mrshoho do you know what a "straw man" argument is?

I didn't say they hadn't had any lockdown.

It's also not remotely true to say that the USA has had lockdown measures as strict as the UK. [straw man back at you, as I know that's not what you said.]

I can tell that the OP has a very balanced viewpoint and is willing to hear both sides 😂

@notrub

There's absolutely NO point in arguing with those who deny lockdowns, deny the threat of covid, pretend the GBD is not a GBL (Great Big Lie).

Anyone who thinks Lawrence Fox or Toby Young has ANYTHING to say worth listening to is beyond psychiatric help and should be sectioned.

Do you argue with a psychopath, or do you shoot them before they can harm you?

Do you honestly think you sound rational when spouting this?

[quote oldwhyno]@mrshoho do you know what a "straw man" argument is?

I didn't say they hadn't had any lockdown.

It's also not remotely true to say that the USA has had lockdown measures as strict as the UK. [straw man back at you, as I know that's not what you said.][/quote]
You could say then some measures the USA took were stricter though. In person schooling in some states didn't resume in the way it did in the UK. Some states implemented curfues on and off.

Plenty of scientists are against lockdowns. Here are a group of epidemiologists that are against them: gbdeclaration.org/

Is that the completely discredited Great Barrington thingummy? I think you've just undermined your argument there. I'm not clicking on random links