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For people who like 'following the science' - what research shows about the impact of human relationships on health and life expectancy

121 replies

TheDailyCarbunkle · 11/02/2021 15:41

Research with tens of thousands of people showed that it wasn't weight, alcohol consumption or even whether or not you smoked that was the greatest predictor of how long a person lives. In second place in the top ten factors that contribute to health and long life is close relationships, people you can rely on and talk to. In first place as in, the number one predictor of health and survival is the range of both strong and weak connections a person has, ie the extent to which they chat to people day to day - the person in the coffee shop, the cleaner at work, your neighbours. Conversely, not interacting with other people day to day, not having incidental conversations with people, has a massive impact on health. It is the primary factor that makes the difference.

This is an excellent talk about the effect of relationships on health, I'd recommend watching it: www.ted.com/talks/susan_pinker_the_secret_to_living_longer_may_be_your_social_life/transcript?language=en

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Thread gallery
6
SunshineOutdoors · 11/02/2021 22:06

I work for a grant making charity, and part of our work is understanding the need in our community, and what factors affect quality of life. Pre-pandemic the negative impact of loneliness on physical and mental health and well being was widely talked about. I do worry about these effects now.

titchy · 11/02/2021 22:21

[quote DuchessofHastings1]@titchy people have died of heart attacks, just hearts attacks alone before Covid came along.
If someone has a heart attack, and they test positive for Covid (though they might not have even had any symptoms prior death) it goes down as a Covid statistic. Doctors arent carrying out post mortems to see if Covid actually contributed to their death, they get a positive test and it goes down as a Covid death. Comprende?[/quote]
It goes down as a 'tested positive in the last 28 days' - but unless the clinician treating the patient thinks covid was a factor it won't also go down on the death certificate. In other words if covid is on the death certificate it is because the clinician thinks that having covid contributed to the dying. Comprende. Hmm

Or maybe you think doctors are in the habit of making up shit to add to death certificates?

spongebob1000 · 11/02/2021 22:25

[quote DuchessofHastings1]@titchy people have died of heart attacks, just hearts attacks alone before Covid came along.
If someone has a heart attack, and they test positive for Covid (though they might not have even had any symptoms prior death) it goes down as a Covid statistic. Doctors arent carrying out post mortems to see if Covid actually contributed to their death, they get a positive test and it goes down as a Covid death. Comprende?[/quote]
I agree ☝️

echt · 11/02/2021 22:25

@DuchessofHastings1

Goes without saying, really.

Were social beings and keeping people locked up like this will only have a major impact on a person's health and being.
The vast majority, 95% or more, will be not be killed by Covid but suicide rates, mental health rates are at an all time high, and let's not mention the developmental delays it will have in childre due to lockdowns and lack of social interaction.

Pure speculation, particularly about the suicide rates.
HarveySchlumpfenburger · 11/02/2021 22:30

@TornadoOfSouls

I’m on antidepressants and have been for a large proportion of my life. I don’t need long COVID or the worry of my DH (who’s vulnerable) getting really ill on top of my existing MH issues.

I would like to see some sensible conversations around mental health, especially the impact of lockdown on younger people, and more support for those who need it, but I don’t feel this either/or, COVID v mental health dichotomy is helpful. To some extent I’d even say that my MH issues have helped me develop resilience and a stoical attitude, which has been very helpful throughout the pandemic.

I’d agree with this totally.

There’s been a lot of focus on how lockdown is bad for mental health and pitting one set of deaths against another, but very little on helping people cope and resilience.

I have a feeling a lot of this concern for mental health that’s appeared might disappear when lockdowns are no longer such an issue and won’t be put to use in dealing with the already ailing and underfunded MH service.

DuchessofHastings1 · 12/02/2021 00:03

@echt I would say it's a good likelihood.

I know one person who has died of Covid ( nearly 70 years old) and everyone who I know is fed up. Colleagues, friends, family. They have lost jobs, prescribed medication for mental health, their children withdrawn, they're education suffering.

So if this is only in my circle, I'm guessing a lot more people will suffer from the effects of lockdowns rather than Covid itself.

TiredAndBonkers · 12/02/2021 01:43

@midgedude

Now I was reading the other day about how mental health isn't as badly affected as many people here believe ( in terms of how much of the population suffers worse mental health. )

Sexual assault which is more personal will affect you more than an event like this pandemic which does affect everyone

Scientific study but possibly not the study you want

The reason something that affects everyone is less likely to affect mental health is that people go through it together, and support each other. In this instance, we're unable to do that. We want to band together, to cling to our loved ones, but we're separated from them. So I'm not sure it applies in this scenario. It will depend on your household though - obviously worst for people living alone.

Also, people are more likely to be affected by human-made events than natural events. It's due to sort of losing faith in humanity. So you could argue that suffering due to lockdowns is more likely to cause mental health issues than dealing with the pandemic itself...

I also wonder what will happen when it's over. I know for myself I am holding on through this but fear breakdown when it's over and I try to rebuild my shattered life. I can't be the only one.

BonnesVacances · 12/02/2021 08:05

[quote TheDailyCarbunkle]Research with tens of thousands of people showed that it wasn't weight, alcohol consumption or even whether or not you smoked that was the greatest predictor of how long a person lives. In second place in the top ten factors that contribute to health and long life is close relationships, people you can rely on and talk to. In first place as in, the number one predictor of health and survival is the range of both strong and weak connections a person has, ie the extent to which they chat to people day to day - the person in the coffee shop, the cleaner at work, your neighbours. Conversely, not interacting with other people day to day, not having incidental conversations with people, has a massive impact on health. It is the primary factor that makes the difference.

This is an excellent talk about the effect of relationships on health, I'd recommend watching it: www.ted.com/talks/susan_pinker_the_secret_to_living_longer_may_be_your_social_life/transcript?language=en[/quote]
Well, DD is fucked then as she's had ME for 5 years and been housebound since she was 14. Confused There are hundreds of thousands of people in the UK who live in social isolation through illness or loneliness and did so long before this pandemic. I just hope that everyone who is now wringing their hands over how desperate this lifestyle is, turn their minds to these people when their own lives are "back to normal".

bumblingbovine49 · 12/02/2021 08:11

[quote TheDailyCarbunkle]Research with tens of thousands of people showed that it wasn't weight, alcohol consumption or even whether or not you smoked that was the greatest predictor of how long a person lives. In second place in the top ten factors that contribute to health and long life is close relationships, people you can rely on and talk to. In first place as in, the number one predictor of health and survival is the range of both strong and weak connections a person has, ie the extent to which they chat to people day to day - the person in the coffee shop, the cleaner at work, your neighbours. Conversely, not interacting with other people day to day, not having incidental conversations with people, has a massive impact on health. It is the primary factor that makes the difference.

This is an excellent talk about the effect of relationships on health, I'd recommend watching it: www.ted.com/talks/susan_pinker_the_secret_to_living_longer_may_be_your_social_life/transcript?language=en[/quote]
I find this very interesting but it actually backs what I instinctively believe about humans and how they thrive so I am a bit biased.

The data on suicides given by a PP is something I've been meaning to post myself for a while as I don't do the hyperbole around suicides ihelpful at the moment though I too am particularly concerned about young people at the moment

What I will say is that if you go back way before Covid there are many many many posts on here from people celebrating their antisocial tendancies. Moaning about minor irrigations from work colleagues who have the temerity to talk to them, refusing to answer door bells or phone calls because they are intrusive talking about how much they get an annoyed with everyone just for being alive . I think as a society we stopped aspiring to live like the people in that Ted talk a long time ago . The pandemic may be making things worse but our socially fractured society predates Covid by hundreds of years

The difficulty with that sort of life it that you so have to give up quite a few ' individual' freedoms for something bigger then yourself .

In the case of the Italian village, the people who care for the older residents despite them being grumpy and it being time consuming see it as part of a greater good. Their society places great value on outward forms of social interactions . Why do you think some cultures have strong social norms about hospitality and how you treat guests even if you loathe the guests ?

My mother lived a long life and throughout it was surrounded by people visitors and friends . She managed to create this even in her care home at the end when most people are totally alone. She did this by a lifetime of feilng obliged to be hospitable ,despite her not actually liking some of them (I know as she often moaned about some of them to me). I often accused her of hypocrisy in my youth but I know better now

To her whether she liked someone or not was irrelevant to whether she talked to them ,helped them or let them into her home. Our home growing up was FULL of people all the time. Some family but also friends, neighbours, ex lodgers , friends of friends . People came all the time and were welcomed.

When my mother was old, many of them people visited her in her care home . Not once or twice but regularly over the two years she was there and this gave her comfort whether she liked the visitor much or not

CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/02/2021 08:36

Yes, to make sure people are terrorised and manipulated enough to stick to lockdown, not to make sure we are ok My apologies. I quite forgot where I was posting!

FFS!

DuchessofHastings1 · 12/02/2021 08:56

@titchy I am afraid your have been massively misinformed - or your just dense.

The doctor doesnt stand there and 'think' that Covid contributed to the death. They are not allowed to do that as that would make it purely guess work, if indeed that actually happens, which is does not
I'm 100% sure the doctors dont make up the results, but what they actually do is they go by the results of the Covid test they carry out.
If the result is no Covid, Covid wont go down on their death certificate, if it is positive for Covid, it does go down on their death certificate.
They do not carry out to a post mortem to seeing Covid actusllt contributed... THEY GET THE RESULTS FROM THE TEST

Do you understand that or do you want me to put it in a nursery rhyme?

TheDailyCarbunkle · 12/02/2021 09:27

[quote DuchessofHastings1]@titchy I am afraid your have been massively misinformed - or your just dense.

The doctor doesnt stand there and 'think' that Covid contributed to the death. They are not allowed to do that as that would make it purely guess work, if indeed that actually happens, which is does not
I'm 100% sure the doctors dont make up the results, but what they actually do is they go by the results of the Covid test they carry out.
If the result is no Covid, Covid wont go down on their death certificate, if it is positive for Covid, it does go down on their death certificate.
They do not carry out to a post mortem to seeing Covid actusllt contributed... THEY GET THE RESULTS FROM THE TEST

Do you understand that or do you want me to put it in a nursery rhyme?[/quote]
That's not actually what's happening at all. I know directly of two cases where the patient had a negative covid test (in one case two negative tests) and their primary cause of death was recorded as covid.

The 'with covid' statistics cover situations in which the person died of something else while also infected with covid - in that case the covid doesn't need to be symptomatic of contribute in any way to the death, it just has to be present.

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TheDailyCarbunkle · 12/02/2021 09:27

Regardless this isn't about covid statistics.

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TheDailyCarbunkle · 12/02/2021 09:29

@noblegiraffe

I mean, the GDP of the country you live in seems to have an impact on life expectancy for a start.
If you take a look at the research you'll see that it's about behaviour rather than socioeconomic status - so it looks at the effect of losing weight, of giving up smoking etc. In that context the number one behaviour that contributes to health is having daily interactions with people.

It's worth mentioning poverty though because lockdown will create massive poverty. Combine that with the long term damage done by isolating people and you get a catastrophic fallout.

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MarshaBradyo · 12/02/2021 09:33

Yes, to make sure people are terrorised and manipulated enough to stick to lockdown, not to make sure we are ok

A good point

titchy · 12/02/2021 09:40

[quote DuchessofHastings1]@titchy I am afraid your have been massively misinformed - or your just dense.

The doctor doesnt stand there and 'think' that Covid contributed to the death. They are not allowed to do that as that would make it purely guess work, if indeed that actually happens, which is does not
I'm 100% sure the doctors dont make up the results, but what they actually do is they go by the results of the Covid test they carry out.
If the result is no Covid, Covid wont go down on their death certificate, if it is positive for Covid, it does go down on their death certificate.
They do not carry out to a post mortem to seeing Covid actusllt contributed... THEY GET THE RESULTS FROM THE TEST

Do you understand that or do you want me to put it in a nursery rhyme?[/quote]

A patient may have had a positive test 30 days ago (outside the 28 days of the other measure). They have spent the last three weeks on a ventilator. They have died only covid and that goes on their death certificate.

Another patient, also tested positive 30 days ago. Dies of pneumonia. Doctor uses his experience to determine that had the patient not contracted covid they would have lived. Therefore covid on death certificate as secondary cause.

Patient has positive test 7 days ago. Has come into hospital having been shot. They die of their injury. Covid does not go on their death certificate.

Maybe read the above a few times to make sure you really understand.

Bottom line is that the number of death certificates with covid as main or secondary cause of death is higher than the official measure. And doctors don't make up causes of death for the lols. If they think covid was a contributory factor, they list it. If they don't, they don't.

titchy · 12/02/2021 09:43

Not that the thread was about that.

Not sure what the thread is about actually. It seems to be saying that lockdown is so bad it is killing more than it saves. Which is also bollocks. Although of course I recognise and have huge sympathy for the hundreds of thousands that are seriously struggling with it.ThanksCake

TheDailyCarbunkle · 12/02/2021 09:47

@titchy

Not that the thread was about that.

Not sure what the thread is about actually. It seems to be saying that lockdown is so bad it is killing more than it saves. Which is also bollocks. Although of course I recognise and have huge sympathy for the hundreds of thousands that are seriously struggling with it.ThanksCake

What it's about is pointing out that daily connection with other human beings is the number one behaviour that contributes to health and longevity, ahead of quitting smoking, having a flu jab, losing weight, stopping drinking. It is vital for good health. So locking people down and depriving them of one of the main sources of stress relief and support isn't just a small sacrifice, it's going to have a huge impact on their health, ie lockdown will contribute to deaths now and an in the long run.
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Ponoka7 · 12/02/2021 10:02

@titchy, i agree with lock downs. But there are credible reports that show for every three people who've died from Covid, at least two have died from the lock down. Lock downs have had a massive impact on people's health and children's development, but there wasn't really an alternative to that. It should be recognised though.

The crisis in Prisons has been getting highlighted recently. There's more drug use and self harming. There's been no pledged for more mental health support, so there will be an impact on rehabilitation. That should concern us all. It would be cheaper to spend more on prison MH services than have them back within the justice system within a year. But that won't be done.

Refugees and asylum serkers are another group who won't recover easily. Quite a lot of the killings, suicides, violent offences and self harming have been because of a lack of mental health and support services because of lock down.

The new variants show that we did need restrictions. But I think that there's been advantage taking across some of the services, which needs investigation.

TheDailyCarbunkle · 12/02/2021 10:06

[quote Ponoka7]@titchy, i agree with lock downs. But there are credible reports that show for every three people who've died from Covid, at least two have died from the lock down. Lock downs have had a massive impact on people's health and children's development, but there wasn't really an alternative to that. It should be recognised though.

The crisis in Prisons has been getting highlighted recently. There's more drug use and self harming. There's been no pledged for more mental health support, so there will be an impact on rehabilitation. That should concern us all. It would be cheaper to spend more on prison MH services than have them back within the justice system within a year. But that won't be done.

Refugees and asylum serkers are another group who won't recover easily. Quite a lot of the killings, suicides, violent offences and self harming have been because of a lack of mental health and support services because of lock down.

The new variants show that we did need restrictions. But I think that there's been advantage taking across some of the services, which needs investigation.[/quote]
This attitude interests me. How can lockdown be said to be necessary if it kills people? As in, how is a solution designed to 'save lives' effective if it actually takes lives?

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Ponoka7 · 12/02/2021 10:06

@TheDailyCarbunkle, moving forward if you wasn't the type of person to get involved in the closure or defunding of community/charity centers/services, cuts to disability benefits, bus pass removal, park closures, then do so after this. Like a pp and many others on other tbreads, I hope this gives people empathy towards those groups who are isolated via their health or income.

DuchessofHastings1 · 12/02/2021 10:36

Another patient, also tested positive 30 days ago. Dies of pneumonia. Doctor uses his experience to determine that had the patient not contracted covid they would have lived. Therefore covid on death certificate as secondary cause.

That's my whole point!!
If someone dies of pneumonia and they test positive for Covid. The doctors decides if they would have likely died from pneumonia if they didn't have Covid. If the doctor decides yes they would have, pneumonia goes down as the cause of death and then Covid goes down as a secondary cause. This we can agree on yes?
so now we have covid down as a secondary cause but there is no way to determine if the Covid contributed to their death there fore should not be down as a secondary cause. It shouldn't be on their death certificate at all if there is no evidence that it contributed to their death!!

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 12/02/2021 10:38

Clearly the measures taken to prevent the spread of covid also prevent the spread of flu so we’d expect flu deaths to drop?

Agreed. There was also a huge expansion of the flu vaccination programme to include much younger people than previously (50 and above?).

DuchessofHastings1 · 12/02/2021 10:39

So all these deaths that have Covid as a 'secondary cause' .i.e a positive test result, it goes into the statistics as a Covid death though theyres no actual evidence it contributed.

So when the Media say 115,00 death toll we need lockdowns.
We have 115,00 WITH Covid not BECAUSE of Covid.

SansaSnark · 12/02/2021 10:40

[quote DuchessofHastings1]@echt I would say it's a good likelihood.

I know one person who has died of Covid ( nearly 70 years old) and everyone who I know is fed up. Colleagues, friends, family. They have lost jobs, prescribed medication for mental health, their children withdrawn, they're education suffering.

So if this is only in my circle, I'm guessing a lot more people will suffer from the effects of lockdowns rather than Covid itself.[/quote]
You can say what you like, but you're objectively wrong.

Maybe actually look at the statistics around death before spouting such offensive, ill informed bullshit?

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