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Original poster

How to discuss rationally with anti vaxxers

105 replies

HermioneKipper · 04/02/2021 13:59

I’m having serious trouble staying calm when taking to my mother who during this latest lockdown seems to have become caught up with various conspiracies and anti vaxxer sentiment. She’s decided she won’t be getting the vaccine, that the mainstream media isn’t reporting all the side effects and evidence/videos are removed from websites/YouTube etc before people can read them.

I’m genuinely concerned for her health and am very pro vaccine myself.

We seem to end up in an argument every time we talk and when I ask her to back up her claims or cite trusted sources she is obviously unable to do this. I need help staying calm and to try and discuss it all more rationally, with the hope that she’ll take the vaccine and protect hers and others health.

Her general views:

  • Believes covid is “just” the flu
  • Thinks she won’t be affected by covid if she gets it despite being in her late 60s and overweight
  • Thinks there will be significant health ramifications if she takes the vaccine
  • The government/media are complicit in a huge coverup
OP posts:
Angrymum22 · 04/02/2021 14:55

Approach from a different angle. Ask her for a serious discussion about her wishes if she, god forbid, ends up on a ventilator. Bring up the subject of a living will. You need to make sure she is clear about what she wishes you to do if an end of life situation occurs.
To be honest, Covid aside, it is something all of us should do with aging parents.
I lost my mum in her 50s and dad died in his 60s of a cruel degenerative disease, but we had had the talk before both became unable to communicate so were able to make difficult decisions freely knowing that it was what they wanted.
It may focus your mums mind on the consequences of sticking her head in the sand. It is her choice but you need to know what her choice would be if this decision has consequences.

Original poster
HermioneKipper · 04/02/2021 14:56

@Crosstrainer

You can’t have a rational discussion- it’s like a religion for them. All you can do is point out things they may not be able to do if they haven’t had it and see if that acts as enough incentive. (The only anti-vaxxer I know is obsessed with travelling. She can’t get on a plane without one? She’s had the jab....)
This is a good point except she says it’s like her human rights have been stripped away if she would be prevented from doing things if she doesn’t get the jab.

She’s quite a hippy type and is generally very upset at how people have reacted to her getting the jab. Has phoned me in tears when her friends etc have told her she should get the vaccine even though she knows my views on it

OP posts:
Lunariagal · 04/02/2021 14:59

My parents are in their eighties, not in the greatest of health and are also refusers.

They are evangelical Christians and only really watch the news channels and the god channels. Someone on one of the god channels has said that vaccines are basically a money making exercise,and that covid is perfectly curable.

My mum in particular also believes that the reason why she's been feeling so ill in the last 20 years is because of a flu jab she had on 2001 (nothing to do with your heart condition, subsequent heart failure / attack and dependence on warfarin Hmm).

I / my brother/ other relatives have said their piece and they are unchanged in their opinion.

We aren't going to say anything else. You can't reason with stupid.

AgeLikeWine · 04/02/2021 15:06

There is nothing you can do I’m afraid. It’s her life, her body and her choice.

If she insists on believing irrational nonsense and is determined to ignore the science, that’s up to her. Some people’s brains are just not capable of understanding, processing and evaluate evidence and data, so they cling to simplistic, but false, ‘alternative’ explanations.

What you can do is refuse to discuss the subject and refuse to engage with her nonsense.

bumbleymummy · 04/02/2021 15:16

Not calling people who don’t want this particular vaccine ‘anti-vaxx’ might be a good start.

Do you call people who decide not to take the flu vaccine every year ‘anti-vaxx’?

Oneearringlost · 04/02/2021 15:17

What, the human right to pass it on?

Oneearringlost · 04/02/2021 15:21

She has the right to refuse a vaccination, but she doesn't have the right to inflict disease on someone else. Their right to be protected, because your unvaccinated mother is not allowed to do something/go somewhere, trumps hers

Original poster
HermioneKipper · 04/02/2021 15:23

@Oneearringlost

She has the right to refuse a vaccination, but she doesn't have the right to inflict disease on someone else. Their right to be protected, because your unvaccinated mother is not allowed to do something/go somewhere, trumps hers
How is this helpful? I have clearly said I don’t agree with this position
OP posts:
thelegohooverer · 04/02/2021 15:25

Just listen. Ask questions and listen. Most people need to say the stuff that’s in their heads out loud before they can make enough space to fit another thought in there.
Listening non judgementally, without pinning someone permanently to their opinions, is very powerful.

It’s far more effective to let people find and explore the logical loopholes themselves than to grab them by the ear and force them to look at them.

I start from the position that they might be right and I might be wrong. And when it’s someone I love, I’m curious to hear what they think and how they got there. Sometimes there’s fear and anxiety underlying the nonsense and listening to that is helpful. Sometimes loneliness drives people into pseudo online communities and bringing a bit of offline kindness and respect into the dialogue can help.

But if you would rather drive them deeper into their conspiracies and delusions argue and debate and ridicule are a good way to go.

Original poster
HermioneKipper · 04/02/2021 15:25

@bumbleymummy

Not calling people who don’t want this particular vaccine ‘anti-vaxx’ might be a good start.

Do you call people who decide not to take the flu vaccine every year ‘anti-vaxx’?

If you read my posts you would see I’ve said that she didn’t used to have these views. The latest lockdown seems to have triggered something in her to hugely distrust the government/medical professionals and vaccinations in general. So yes she is now an anti vaxxer
OP posts:
Devlesko · 04/02/2021 16:00

@Oneearringlost

What, the human right to pass it on?
Having the jab doesn't make you immune, she could still pass it on without. It's not really a vaccine against anything, really.
Oneearringlost · 04/02/2021 16:02

Sorry, HermioneKipper, that was clumsily putFlowers

Cornettoninja · 04/02/2021 16:07

Realistically all you can do is refuse to discuss it and if she won’t respect that cut down contact (and be honest about why).

You’re not going to change her mind and she isn’t going to change yours, if she can’t leave it at that then you have to make your boundaries clear.

Don’t waste your worry on her though, she’s an adult and has made decisions with the same opportunity to access information as you have. Even if you think she’s wrong it’s not your decision to make.

StCharlotte · 04/02/2021 18:04

I think reminding her to make sure her affairs are in order is a good plan as previously suggested.

If it were me I'd resort to a teenage "whatever" or even hands over ears "la la la I can't hear you" but I'm childish like that and wouldn't be bothering engaging in a pointless circular debate.

PuzzledObserver · 04/02/2021 18:15

Listen for a minute or two, then say something like, "Well, Mum, I don't agree with you, so how about I don't try to persuade you and you don't try to persuade me?"

If she says anything else, just keep on repeating "We don't agree on this. Shall we talk about something else?"

"I don't want to discuss this any more, I want to talk about something else."
"I want to talk about something else."

And repeat...

doireallyneedaname · 04/02/2021 19:33

Urgh. All of my family bar my father and partner are not willing to have it. I couldn’t believe my ears when they first said it, two of them in their 50’s and diabetic. They won’t be “guinea pigs” apparently. I can tell when talking to my dad that their beliefs are rubbing off on him too but he is still going to have it. At 76, he says he’s got nothing to lose but everything to gain.

I don’t talk to them about it anymore. Luckily for them, it’s looking likely that the vaccines do reduce transmission.

Ginandtonic1234 · 04/02/2021 19:51

Two of my close family members are covid deniers and anti-vaxxers and I can’t discuss it with them at all because they see anything I say as proof that I’m a sheep and that I’ve been brainwashed by mainstream media. They have an answer for everything.

I’m doing a masters degree and they think I’m being brainwashed by my university. It’s upsetting but I have to just accept that we disagree and neither of us will change our opinions any time soon.

PinkTonic · 04/02/2021 19:59

It's not really a vaccine against anything, really. Confused

Angrymum22 · 04/02/2021 22:27

Alternatively, “perhaps it’s a good thing that vaccines only work for intelligent people” is a good starting point when trying to focus logic.

PurpleHoodie · 04/02/2021 22:32

bumbleymummy

Not calling people who don’t wantthis particularvaccine ‘anti-vaxx’ might be a good start.

Do you call people who decide not to take the flu vaccine every year ‘anti-vaxx’?

A good point to be raised actually.

Her body. Her choice.

You do you.

TrufflyPig · 05/02/2021 07:23

It's infuriating but if she's gone that far down the rabbit hole I don't see you successfully convincing her. You'll only make yourself more angry.

She's made her choice and you can make yours too, you are well within your rights to not see her until you feel better about her safety and yours or you can set boundaries as to what you are comfortable with (e.g only meeting up outside, maintaining social distance, both wearing masks etc).

SavannahMiasMum · 05/02/2021 07:28

We all have choices and what she chooses is nothing to do with you or any one else

TrufflyPig · 05/02/2021 07:36

Lots of people saying 'her body her choice' etc on here, but what would happen if we all had that attitude? We'd never get out of this mess.

OP has a right to be concerned and has a right to speak up as someone she cares deeply about is making a decision (based on questionable sources) that is detrimental to their own health and that of others.

Maybe she can't convince her but I would try my very hardest if it were my mother. I've only just convinced my 86 year old Nan to get vaccinated (and that was a bloody struggle I tell you!).

Eeeemac · 05/02/2021 07:47

Well, what is the alternative to 'her body, her choice'?

That we force people to have a vaccination against their will? That we make life uncomfortable for them (unable to travel or visit places)?

I think we know from history that the idea of 'othering' people is a wholly bad idea.

And so we are left with, 'her body, her choice'.

bobbiester · 05/02/2021 07:50

Now that there is evidence that the vaccines don't just prevent the vaccinated person getting ill but also prevent people transmitting the virus - it's no longer just an issue of personal preference. There is a moral/ethical angle now - it's not just about personal risk.

So I will be explaining to my weird anti-vax relative (also afraid of Bluetooth and 5g) that they won't be able to visit if they decline a vaccine.