Why would you refuse the vacc for your elderly relative?

[LDpuppy]

Doing some work re the vacc today and was recording some instances where someone with poa was refusing the vaccine for their over 80, housebound relative. It made me sad. What reasons could there be? What am I missing?

If the person is very frail they may come to more harm from the vaccine side effects. Maybe they are nearing the end of life anyway and their relative didn't want them to suffer from the side effects.

Don't you have some sort of code of conduct that requires you to disregard/forget the details of the patients?

Of course I don't take note of the patient details!!! But we do have to record why they haven't been vaccinated - which in a few cases has been - POA refused consent.

Our family did have a brief conversation about my 95 year old nan who has express her wishes to die for many years, lives in a care home with severe dementia and that if she had her marbles, she would have much rather a younger person get more protection sooner than herself as she has lived her life (her own words before she deteriorated with dementia). Maybe the family feel the same the vaccine should be passed on. Not saying its right though. We did sign for my nan to have her vaccine in line with the govt advising this to be first groups especially if it helps care home staff and protects other residents.

Thanks @Alicealicewhothe .That's interesting, I suppose if the person had said they didn't want it then fair enough. Hard decision to make.

I think many people are still wary of a brand new (and quick to the market) vaccine. Look what happened with thalidomide, people still remember the scandal.

I had the Oxford jab last Thursday and today was the first day I've actually felt 100% ok since. The first 2 days I was in bed feeling like I had the flu (minus the cough/runny nose). I am fit and healthy and don't normally react to the flu jab so I can totally understand families being wary of giving it to their elderly or frail relatives. They might think it will finish them off or they might balance it on herd immunity in the care home maybe?

I think many people are still wary of a brand new (and quick to the market) vaccine. Look what happened with thalidomide, people still remember the scandal.

Thalidomide wasn't a vaccine. So this isn't a fair comparison. However, after the effects of thalidomide became apparent the UK tightened their guidelines around new medications so that a similar scandal would not be able to happen again

My mother is fervently anti-vax and has been all her life. If I had POA for her, I'd refuse all vaccines, even though I'd want her to have them - POA surely means you respect the person's wishes.

DM is currently completely compos mentis - I'm describing a hypothetical situation where she's not here.

The thalidomide scandal was 60 years ago. The pharmaceutical industry and its regulation has moved on a lot since then.

Someone with POA for health can still only over-ride the wishes of the patient if they are unable to understand the implications of treatment. And even if POA is used for one thing, for other things the patient has a right to still make a decision even if it’s a foolish decision, as long as they understand what they are doing.

So it might be the patient saying no.

If you have PoA you have a duty to.make decisions obo your loved one in the same vein that they would make if they still had capacity. So if your loved one had consistently refused the flu vaccine, for example, on the grounds that they won't have voluntary vaccinations, then it is your duty to take the same line. Similarly, if your loved one had been a vegetarian all their adult life you would be wrong to say they can now have meat "as they won't know the difference"

Perhaps they are now end of life and expected to die shortly (like within weeks or months), or perhaps they indicated before becoming ill that they didn't want any more tests or similar.
Lots of reasons.

@nevertakeabreak

I think many people are still wary of a brand new (and quick to the market) vaccine. Look what happened with thalidomide, people still remember the scandal.

Thalidomide wasn't a vaccine. So this isn't a fair comparison. However, after the effects of thalidomide became apparent the UK tightened their guidelines around new medications so that a similar scandal would not be able to happen again

I personally know this but the same logic surrounding new medication is applied to this vaccine. I know this after speaking to older people about their thoughts about the vaccine. My ex MIL is strange about vaccines and medicines for this reason and also because she says her son reacted really badly and started fitting after the measles vaccine in the 1980's. So her and FIL have decided not to have it, they don't have the flu jab either for the above mentioned reasons. My mum didn't take any medication during my pregnancy in 1985 purely off the back of the thalidomide scandal. I am honestly not saying I agree with any of these reasons but that's why people are wary. I have had my covid vaccine so obviously these aren't my opinions.

@JaninaDuszejko

The thalidomide scandal was 60 years ago. The pharmaceutical industry and its regulation has moved on a lot since then.

I know, but big scandals stick in people's minds don't they? It's 100% not my opinion, I'm too young to have experienced it in any way, but it is in the minds of some of the older generation unfortunately. I reckon if my mum was still alive (she'd be 61) she would also refuse the vaccine for that reason.

@lyingwanker
Good for you for having your Covid vaccine. You should do more to educate those who are scared of a vaccine because they remember the thalidomide scandal.

[quote nevertakeabreak]@lyingwanker
Good for you for having your Covid vaccine. You should do more to educate those who are scared of a vaccine because they remember the thalidomide scandal. [/quote]
Ok

I know, but big scandals stick in people's minds don't they? It's 100% not my opinion, I'm too young to have experienced it in any way, but it is in the minds of some of the older generation unfortunately. I reckon if my mum was still alive (she'd be 61) she would also refuse the vaccine for that reason.

Things that "stick in peoples minds" and "things that are correct" not, of course, being remotely the same things. Your mum, I would think, might have been far more sensible than you think and have been aware of the differences too. I also remember it - vividly as I had a friend at school who was disabled as a result of it. I am 63. Wild horses wouldn't persuade me to avoid the vaccine.

The vaccine isn’t quick to the market.

It’s been years in the making.

People just cannot bring themselves to engage with the science can they.

Embarrassing.

I'm sure there are many reasons

My mother is pro vax, my father was a doctor.

She dithered because she is the youngest of 10 and Covid is a far better end of life experience than her siblings had - 8 are gone. There's a terrifying thing on her side of the family of living far too long with the final years bedridden and incontinent, desperate to die.

Much to my surprise, she opted to have it but it was a close run thing. If there had been a reason I had PofA and had to decide for her, I'd have said no. MN talks about Covid as a terrible way to go but compared to any experience I've seen, it really isn't.

I've got a friend whose 91 year old mother is desperate to die and they are both getting upset because there's been "several" follow up calls after she refused. I didn't think the NHS would do that, it's horrible.