Whenever the schools return, aren't the kids just facing months of disruption again?

[dameofdilemma]

There's lots of speculation about when schools will reopen but I've yet to see anything acknowledging that even when schools open pupils and teachers still face months of disruption.

No firm timing on when teachers will be offered the vaccination which means:

Bubbles will continue to burst, classes and year groups will still be sent home.

Teachers will still have to self isolate (whether they have symptoms or not, whether they test positive or not).
Teachers will still struggle to stretch resources to cover teachers having to self isolate.

Children will still miss yet more school.

Won't this continue far beyond April? So basically most of the remainder of the school year??

Well, yes, probably-because in all these months, the government has spent their time repeating loudly that schools are ‘SAFE’, rather than spending a penny actually making them safe.

Yes, disruption will certainly continue but as more and more people are vaccinated in the wider community hopefully disruption will begin to reduce.

Bubbles don’t burst in schools because teachers aren’t vaccinated and even if they were they would still need to isolate if in contact with a person who tested positive.

@Howshouldibehave

Well, yes, probably-because in all these months, the government has spent their time repeating loudly that schools are ‘SAFE’, rather than spending a penny actually making them safe.

This.

I'd love to see any information that shows the government has committed money to enable the schools to open. As opposed to telling them to get it out of present budgets.

Whatever happened to catch-up/laptops?

Bubbles will burst even if teachers have the vaccine. Whilst it will make things safer for teachers it will have zero impact on community spread if the children are still mixing, it's just a catchy headline for Labour to score some points. I'm not saying teachers shouldn't be vaccinated, but the idea that it magically fixes schools is laughable. Kids will be in and out like yoyos, the same as they were in the winter term.

"Bubbles don’t burst in schools because teachers aren’t vaccinated"

Between Sept and Dec there were no positive Covid cases for children in dd's school.
There were a few positive cases for teachers though and several more teachers having to self isolate (without symptoms).

Its the latter that caused year groups to have to be sent home and a shortage of teachers (causing even more year groups to be sent home).

If teachers were vaccinated, wouldn't that at least reduce the likelihood of year groups being sent home and there being a shortage of teachers?

I hadnt even thought of that. You make a good point but considering theyve spent the last year telling us schools are safe places I cant see them doing much differently when they reopen

I know teachers who have been vaccinated already based only on the fact that they are teachers. So no health conditions and under 70 years old. Is this not happening across the board?

There has been no money spent to make schools safer so the disruption will continue. They have to contain community transmission rates so bubbles will burst etc. Vaccinating adults will likely have very little effect on rates in kids so just more of the same really.

Eventually, even with positive cases in schools, we are going to have to stop sending bubbles home. If teachers are unwell, they will to recover at home, as with any other sickness. Once they're vaccinated, the risk of severe illness should be much reduced.

At some point, we will have to shift our mindset to treat this more like flu - teachers have always been exposed to a number of respiratory winter viruses, but schools have never closed when the flu rates were high, or when there have been noro outbreaks.

I know we're not there yet - once enough people are vaccinated in the wider community, and therefore the risk of severe disease is far reduced - then the disruption might be less frequent. But I don't see that happening for the rest of this academic year to be honest, bleak though it is - unless they change the vaccine priorities.

The warmer weather will help reduce illness naturally. Other than that yes I imagine it’ll be similar to the autumn term. Unless they decide to keep some year groups at home in which case I might book a term time holiday

And at my school, not one single member of staff tested positive for Covid since September (some did catch it doing KW care in the first lockdown but that didn't affect staffing as there were spare staff) but 27 students did.

Yes, bubbles will continue to burst and children will continue to have to isolate until a lot more than just the over 50s have the vaccine.

@Cuppaand2biscuits

I know teachers who have been vaccinated already based only on the fact that they are teachers. So no health conditions and under 70 years old. Is this not happening across the board?

No - this is not happening across the board. Gov are still to make a decision on whether teachers will be bumped up the vaccine priority list - so currently they are waiting like the rest of us. I assume those you know already have been lucky to get some left-over vaccine at the end of the day.

If teachers are vaccinated soon, I think bubbles will still burst for a while until we are confident in how the vaccine affects transmission. Until then, we have to assume vaccinated folk can still spread covid and therefore need to isolate (on the basis the majority of working adults won't have been vaccinated at that point). I agree, we will still see disruption for a while until more people are vaccinated - there's always the risk at the moment that kids could bring it home to families and given the age range of most parents of school age kids, it's unlikely their families will have been vaccinated until later in the year.

What’s the alternative? Keep the kids home forever? I’m sick of hearing the kids are the priority but nothing is being done to back that up. I’ve got 2 kids in year 10 and 12 so v important years who’ve had enough disruption as it is. Both work really hard but are so fed up with it all. Missing their clubs and missing their friends and their independence. Why can’t they jab the teachers in half term and then have the kids back? Why can’t they at least have half the kids in half the week each. Why can’t they have year 11 and 13 in to sit mocks? Secondary schools are huge. Social distancing no problem to take a year group at a time. Excuses is all it is and I have had enough of it now. Our kids will pay for this for the rest of their lives.

We need to make schools safer, but vaccinating the teachers isn't going to be the key measure for this, as the risk (as laid out in yesterday's press conference) isn't so much the amount of cases within a school (even though that leads to considerable and random disruption arising from need to SI), but is rather the role as vector - particularly arising from secondary schools.

So yes, we need better measures in schools, particularly secondaries - which given that setting and subject options means pupils change groups several times a day, is the hardest group to put effective measures round. Masks and ventilation are the minimum. Coming in just for motivational contact and lab work/other practicals might be a stepping stone.

But what s really needed is community transmission to be so low that the school role as vector becomes unimportant.

That depends on 2 things
a) getting the number of cases down and, following that, seeing the hospitals emptying. Lockdown is beginning to make this happen
b) vaccinating the vulnerable (and hoping that in addition to the protection of the individual, the hoped for impact on transmission is shown to be real)

Yes until the whole adult population is vaccinated, hoping by June, there will still be disruption for some/many.

And even afterwards I imagine if a child does catch Covid however mild self isolation will still be expected.

One step at a time.

@Cuppaand2biscuits

I know teachers who have been vaccinated already based only on the fact that they are teachers. So no health conditions and under 70 years old. Is this not happening across the board?

No, it isn’t. Which LEA are you referring to?

Yes the rest of the school year will remain disrupted but hopefully this vaccination programme will start to improve things.

I think how people feel about this reflects how disrupted they were before. So areas where there were few cases and not really the new strain they have no experience of the in-out hockey cokey of bubbles bursting. Where I work we had no bubbles burst so there was a lot of continuity and it was a very positive term. Some individuals had to isolate due to contacts outside the school but it was tiny numbers.

But my son missed quite a lot of school which is in a different town. He had to isolate 3 times and his teachers were sometimes isolating - so it all felt a lot more chaotic and stressful.

@wixked

There has been no money spent to make schools safer so the disruption will continue. They have to contain community transmission rates so bubbles will burst etc. Vaccinating adults will likely have very little effect on rates in kids so just more of the same really.

Genuine question, why will vaccinating adults not have much effect on rates in kids?

schools do close for norovirus outbreaks. There is a certain point where either there aren't enough teachers to open and no supply will come in or PHE records it as an outbreak and asks the school to close and deep clean - but its a quick closure.

@dameofdilemma

"Bubbles don’t burst in schools because teachers aren’t vaccinated"

Between Sept and Dec there were no positive Covid cases for children in dd's school.
There were a few positive cases for teachers though and several more teachers having to self isolate (without symptoms).

Its the latter that caused year groups to have to be sent home and a shortage of teachers (causing even more year groups to be sent home).

If teachers were vaccinated, wouldn't that at least reduce the likelihood of year groups being sent home and there being a shortage of teachers?

Teachers test positive more because they are more likely to have symptoms than the children, lots of children are asymptomatic and therefore spread it to other children and there homes without ever being tested or being identified as a reason for the class to self isolate.

32 people in an enclosed room, 2 of which are vaccinated won’t mean less community spread. Vaccinating teachers will make them feel better about being put in that environment but it isn’t the answer to containing the virus. This can only be done with mass vaccination and with investment in improving surroundings in schools - better investment in outdoor teaching areas, bigger classrooms, better ventilation. Obviously this can’t happen overnight but should still be a lesson to the government for future variants of Covid 19 or indeed another pandemic!

@dameofdilemma

"Bubbles don’t burst in schools because teachers aren’t vaccinated"

Between Sept and Dec there were no positive Covid cases for children in dd's school.
There were a few positive cases for teachers though and several more teachers having to self isolate (without symptoms).

Its the latter that caused year groups to have to be sent home and a shortage of teachers (causing even more year groups to be sent home).

If teachers were vaccinated, wouldn't that at least reduce the likelihood of year groups being sent home and there being a shortage of teachers?

Not necessarily if vaccines don’t prevent transmission the teachers will still contract and pass it on. So bubbles will still burst. This is precisely why they are waiting for the data on vaccine transmission etc before they decide on the order for stage two of vaccination. If it stops transmission it makes sense to vaccinate those most at risk of contracting it like teachers, if it doesn’t they need to concentrate on who is more at risk of serious illness.

Some really helpful posts here...trying to get my (overtired) brain around around it.

I guess the reason I thought vaccinating teachers might make a difference was because the instances in dd's school where whole classes or year groups were sent home, were due to teachers either testing positive or self isolating (with no symptoms) because they had been in contact with the teacher who tested positive.

In the local secondary school, which had a couple of instances of children testing positive, only small groups of children were sent home, not whole classes or year groups.

Simplistically then, I thought perhaps there might be less disruption to education if teachers were vaccinated, as it might make it less likely that whole year groups would be sent home (as opposed to small group bubbles) and might make it more likely that schools would have sufficient resources.

But expect my thinking is influenced by the particular approach taken by particular schools and also by knowing of very few children testing positive.

@dameofdilemma the same happened in my children’s schools, primary whole class had to isolate, in secondary only group of pupils. According to our secondary, it is because teachers can social distance from pupils by standing 2m away at the front of the class, they also kept detailed seating plans in classrooms and at lunchtime which made it far easier to identify close contacts. This wouldn’t be possible with younger children who can’t social distance to this degree so it’s safer to send them all home to isolate.

But, nationally, secondary school aged pupils were by far the most infected subset of the population for the vast majority of the Autumn term and certainly post half term. Ergo, in most schools, disrupted learning was caused by students passing it among themselves and causing whole classes and sometimes whole year groups to isolate. That won't be improved by just the over 70s being vaccinated or even teachers as well.

We need the vast majority of the adult population to be vaccinated to be sure that ITU doesn't just fill up with more and more 50+ or 40+ or 30+ as it will filter down the population if we have the older people vaccinated and the younger adults mixing with no restraint. ITU beds are the issue, frankly, not deaths.

Sorry for the delay. The teachers I have spoken to work in an academy trust in the Midlands. They got their vaccines because someone on the school staff had a contact at a vaccination centre and they got to take the spares at the end of the week.