Those of you who know about the vaccine rollout.

[Crakeandoryx]

Why are people who are in work taking time off work to help with this when so many are furloughed? I'm talking about stewarding roles that can be done by most people. Surely the country needs people who can work to be working rather than working reduced hours to volunteer (this does not apply to those giving up there own time to volunteer). Furloughed staff could be doing these roles.

Why are people who are not at high risk, not exposed to high viral load, not frontline but back office staff being vaccinated at the moment to use up vaccine doses. Some of these people have recently been infected, survived unaffected and currently have antibodies. While others at serious risk of dying are still waiting, isolated in their homes? Could these doses be given to more appropriate people at very short term notice? Teachers, police etc.

Why are people who live with clinically extremely vulnerable, allowed to volunteer in hospitals if they are generic volunteers without specific skills. This shouldn't be allowed at the moment. Especially with trying to reduce Hospital patients. They are placing their families at risk.

Why are vaccine centres in the north more efficient than the south? I thought this rollout was well planned in advance across the country? Are vaccinations not distributed per head of population of age groups being targeted? If not why not?

I don't understand why these things are happening. I genuinely would like proper answers to these questions.

Lots to unpack here. I’m a volunteer steward. I work full time and do my volunteer shifts around this. Lots of the other volunteers I have spoken to work and are doing the same. Some organisations allow time off for volunteering, what’s wrong with that if they can spare staff? I suppose they can’t force those on furlough to volunteer though can they? They might be furloughed for childcare or using that time to find a new job.

As to why admin staff (I presume you mean in the NHS) being given left over vaccines, that has been answered on here many times. They might not see patients but are part of the infrastructure that keeps hospitals and surgeries running. If they are sick, that too can cause issues.

As to why people are still waiting, I can’t speak to vaccine supplies but locally, staff are working all the hours to get this off the ground and from what I’ve seen have done an amazing job these last 6 weeks. I suspect it wouldn’t be as ‘slow’ as you put it if the NHS and local services weren’t as underfunded in the first place.

I don't know about the specifics of your questions, but I feel so proud and grateful that we are one of the fastest countries to have rolled out the vaccine. Per million of population, I believe we are in the top 3 countries.
There's an informative BBC article at the moment, which details the manufacturing pressures and warnings of delays in supply to all countries over the next couple of months. Take a look at the situation for Europe. It isn't good.

Missfelip thanks for your answers. I wasn't refering to back off staff but more to those who are maybe covered in other ways such as already having antibodies from recent infection.

I'm fortunate enough to be able to primeraly work from home. I have declined a vaccine at the moment as I am not in a category at risk. I can work from home so my role gets done regardless of isolation. I have members of my family who are having to isolate due to shielding letters. The mental toll living under these conditions takes is unreal.

I know people in my position who are known to have had covid in the last 8 weeks, are donating plasma yet they have still accepted a vaccine. This is while others isolate, seriously at risk contract covid daily and die because of it. I find it difficult to reason why people with antibodies, in none risk age groups/categories are offered vaccines or feel it's ok for them to have it at the moment. In a few months maybe. Not right now.

Diana I completely agree we are incredibly fortunate. That's not really the point though. Today I take my mother to be vacinated. She's been isolating for months. I have two other parents / in law's still waiting yet like I've just posted I know people being offered vaccines who are already protected naturally for the time being and in age ranges between 20-40, no underlying issues, no high risk of exposure. Why?

The number you consider unworthy of vaccinations will make no difference to the big picture. you're nit picking. You refusing the vac when offered causes more work, it's not heroic.

The admin re volunteers seems pretty shambolic, and could have been avoided had they got themselves sorted in the summer, but it's unsurprising they didn't.

People on furlough aren't the lazy, great unwashed, & you have NO idea how many have volunteered.

More doe-eyed 'confusion' 🙄

To do with why the North is "ahead", I think the hubs in the South East (where I am) prioritsed vaccinating their front line workers with the first precious pfzier doses in December as the rates of sickness were up to 30%. The healthcare system in the North was under less pressure so perhaps more over 80's/ carehome residents got those first jabs. Now we have the OxAz vaccine it should all even up a bit.

Essentially, because rolling out a mass vaccination programme is very complicated, and they can't take people's individual circumstances into account. There are blanket rules, and vaccinations will be done according to those rules. If your job is in healthcare - regardless of whether you wfh at the moment - you'll be offered a vaccination.

Nit picking! That was exactly the expression i was going to use. Working out who might have natural immunity or might be at lower risk would slow down the process massively.
The way it's being done is with broad categories, which is probably for the best, is it absolutely scrupulously fair? no, but it is efficient.
I am shocked you have turned down the vaccine, dont you realise that you have actually created more work for the people organising the vaccinations?

The headlines you see are the government policies, which do not always work the same everywhere.
Some Gps offer some do not claiming they do not have the resources.
Category 1 patients/staff in care homes and hospital where it can spread very quickly will be referred by employer/care provider and seen the first because it is a Public health disease.
All depends on the local area otherwise.

I've never said those furloughed are the great unwashed. I have huge empathy for people who are not working at the moment and want to. It's this that's makes me think the answer is obvious. I agree that vaccine rollout should be equal across the country.

What I need help to justify on my own mind is why should people who are not vulnerable, exposed or critical frontline be given vaccines?

Nobody has actually given me an answer other than they shouldn't be and it's due to poor organisation. Sorry but it makes me so angry that no real thought has gone into the finer details. Spare vaccine cannot be wasted but I know people who would move heaven and earth to get to a vaccine site if there was the off chance of getting vaccinated because at the moment their life is frightening and miserable.

I’m not really sure where you are getting information from.

The offer of vaccines to Health and Social Care Staff is explicit that this group covers frontline staff only. They can be admin if that role puts they in the frontline. They can be currently wfh if this enables them to return to a frontline role.

All vaccination sites have been directed to maintain reserve lists that only include priority groups. There are plenty of those people still to vaccinate without needing to offer it to people not in a high cohort. If you have direct knowledge of where this is not happening, then you should raise it as a concern with that organisation using specific examples. They can answer your question. But I can assure you it is very clear direction now.

Neither the police or teachers are in a cohort. Some police staff are doing frontline health work, with ambulance crews, moving bodies and treating prisoners. They will be offered vaccine. However it seems inconsistent to criticise an apparent decision to offer out of cohort but then demand that vaccination sites make up their own rules. This is part of the concern you raised.

The first few weeks of vaccination focused on staff, care homes and the over 80’s. Staff were done by hospitals who started at different times, based on their capacity to hold Pfizer. It’s wasn’t a fair geographical distribution. Some areas got ahead. Hospitals in other areas were at height of their local surge.

Other GP vaccination sites did get established across England. But they received vaccine in line with their population sizes for over 80s and care homes. There are very few care homes or over 80’s in central London compared to Eastbourne. The expansion to lower cohorts evens that out. Hence more supply going to London this week.

For supply it’s a push model, sites can only use what they were given. It’s was mainly Pfizer and it’s not like it could be stored. It’s all been used. When AZ starts to flow then it will be different.

My trust has offered all their staff a vaccine now. Community rates round here in December were 1200/100,000 once rates get that high back office staff are at risk of contracting the virus in the canteen (many did). How does a hospital run with no receptionists, no ward clarks ? No one to enter patient details ?

Sadly, as witchesbritches says, there was no attempt made to mobilise the vaccination effort during the months that we were waiting for the vaccine to be developed - just a mad scramble to get it all set up (including training vaccinators) once approval had been granted.

I'm somewhat astonished that we're doing as well as we are with the rollout, I can only presume that existing trained vaccinators are working flat out to deliver it, taking them away from their usual work. I'm inside the system that's supposed to be recruiting and training volunteer vaccinators, and it's not efficient.

I know volunteers and back office staff are getting left over vaccine and I know some of these people have immunity and are young ages, no other health conditions. I already know of numbers nearing a hundred at least 20 of these people are also donating plasma. I'm saying people should decline them. I'm asking why is this happening in the first place.

Why are these vaccines going to this group on a daily basis when they could be given on end of day appointments to those clinically extremely vulnerable. It sits very badly with me.

The system is actually working really well , hence the huge number of vaccines already given. Where I work the care homes residents were behind care homes workers , nhs staff and the over 80s due to the logistics with the Pfizer vaccine and the lack of small batches suitable for smaller homes. As soon as AZ became available they quickly caught up. Some of the house bound over 80s as re still to be done as it is a time consuming business when you take into account consenting, settling patient, observing afterwards but given the overall picture the system is working.
The patients are telephoned from lists when batches of vaccine are thought to be available and the individuals booked in. This is to ensure that the most vulnerable receive their vaccine and that every slot gets used. It is a drain on our admin. capacity but everyone is pleased to take part and there are loads of people keen to support in all the roles. It would slow things down unnecessarily asking for each individuals specific circumstances and I agree that turning down a vaccine does help anyone.Sheilding is absolutely awful, everyone understands , but the broad groups have been done on clinical need and the ECV should be vaccinated in the next 3 weeks assuming vaccine supplies continue.The main rate limiting factor is speed of delivery of vaccine now and this is a central matter over which local services have no control.

To a certain extent I understand your frustration.

Health and social care staff are a priority group and while critical frontline workers were also prioritised within that, others are also receiving the vaccine. I guess it is easier for organisations to invite all staff and as a previous poster said it is about the whole infrastructure of the NHS. If IT goes down the NHS goes down too.

In our area there are adverts going out for people to support the vaccination centres and hospitals...volunteers and paid employment (porters, cleaners as well as stewards and vaccinators). You’d think they would be inundated with applications given that people may be looking for work. The work is open to all in our area. Until then a lot of staffing resources has to go into it and people have been redeployed from their normal roles. Recruitment of new people takes time.

This is a massive project.

@Crakeandoryx

I know volunteers and back office staff are getting left over vaccine and I know some of these people have immunity and are young ages, no other health conditions. I already know of numbers nearing a hundred at least 20 of these people are also donating plasma. I'm saying people should decline them. I'm asking why is this happening in the first place.

Why are these vaccines going to this group on a daily basis when they could be given on end of day appointments to those clinically extremely vulnerable. It sits very badly with me.

If you know that what have you done about it? There are ways to report you concerns. If you did that it could be addressed. Frankly anecdote posted by an unknown on MN isn’t going to achieve a change because who knows what it true.

Please note that I’m disregarding the issue of natural immunity. That’s not a reason to decline or refuse a vaccine. Just your opinion which isn’t supported by the JCVI and it’s a pointless debate in the context you have raised.

@Walkacrossthesand

Sadly, as witchesbritches says, there was no attempt made to mobilise the vaccination effort during the months that we were waiting for the vaccine to be developed - just a mad scramble to get it all set up (including training vaccinators) once approval had been granted.

I'm somewhat astonished that we're doing as well as we are with the rollout, I can only presume that existing trained vaccinators are working flat out to deliver it, taking them away from their usual work. I'm inside the system that's supposed to be recruiting and training volunteer vaccinators, and it's not efficient.

This is your opinion but it is not true.

The mobilisation plans were developed. But they could only go so far until the government knew which vaccine would be used and how it should be handled. It did plan for more than one. It got the most difficult one and the directions on use tightened in response to the anaphylaxis risk.

Putting it quite simply mass sites needed the Oxford vaccine to be optimal. That’s why GPs using Pfizer went first. These sites are smaller and the process is longer.

The job is to get it out there, so get the staff where you can and get punters through the door. The local on the ground organisation has been top drawer unbelievably good. There will never be fairness and I know its healthy for you and the press to hold them to account, but I hope there's no nit picking, jealousy or unhelpful holding back. This is a national emergency and the rollout is impressive.

I disagree with quite a lot on this thread. LemonTT and others seem quite idealistic about how it's supposed to work. Front care line workers only....if it's not complain. Really?

I know for a fact that it isn't working like this in practice. Admittedly this is only what I know locally. I had spoken to 3 people who work in hospitals. I've now spoken to 5.
2 of these of the 2 biggest hospitals in London. 2 on the London outskirts. 1 I visited last week.

Vaccines are being given out Willy nilly. Still. Now. This week. Because so many people are not turning up for hospital appointments, vaccines are now / have been given to anyone. Staff walking around. Members of the public phoned and asked if they can come in the next 20 minutes.

This has happened to 40 people I know. And me myself. I was phoned up at home. I went and got myself vaccinated. For which I'm truely grateful. But really the fact it has been offered to me is not good. The women giving it to me told me that loads of people still, in late January, aren't turning up.

@Oblomov20

I disagree with quite a lot on this thread. LemonTT and others seem quite idealistic about how it's supposed to work. Front care line workers only....if it's not complain. Really?

I know for a fact that it isn't working like this in practice. Admittedly this is only what I know locally. I had spoken to 3 people who work in hospitals. I've now spoken to 5.
2 of these of the 2 biggest hospitals in London. 2 on the London outskirts. 1 I visited last week.

Vaccines are being given out Willy nilly. Still. Now. This week. Because so many people are not turning up for hospital appointments, vaccines are now / have been given to anyone. Staff walking around. Members of the public phoned and asked if they can come in the next 20 minutes.

This has happened to 40 people I know. And me myself. I was phoned up at home. I went and got myself vaccinated. For which I'm truely grateful. But really the fact it has been offered to me is not good. The women giving it to me told me that loads of people still, in late January, aren't turning up.

I didn’t say complain. I said raise a concern. It’s different and it is doable if you are willing. No one can fix unsubstantiated anecdotes thrown about on the internet. If you are staff you have a responsibility to be part of the solution. But what you describe is being part of the problem and doing nothing to fix it.

I’m fixing it because I’m not idealistic or naive. But no one can fix problems that are unspecified.

@Oblomov20

I disagree with quite a lot on this thread. LemonTT and others seem quite idealistic about how it's supposed to work. Front care line workers only....if it's not complain. Really?

I know for a fact that it isn't working like this in practice. Admittedly this is only what I know locally. I had spoken to 3 people who work in hospitals. I've now spoken to 5.
2 of these of the 2 biggest hospitals in London. 2 on the London outskirts. 1 I visited last week.

Vaccines are being given out Willy nilly. Still. Now. This week. Because so many people are not turning up for hospital appointments, vaccines are now / have been given to anyone. Staff walking around. Members of the public phoned and asked if they can come in the next 20 minutes.

This has happened to 40 people I know. And me myself. I was phoned up at home. I went and got myself vaccinated. For which I'm truely grateful. But really the fact it has been offered to me is not good. The women giving it to me told me that loads of people still, in late January, aren't turning up.

DNA's are a serious problem for all medical settings. You would think in a global pandemic this might change. But no.

I would point out though, that this is entirely beyond the vaccination systems control. People have been offered vaccinations, they have taken the trouble to book, their slot is reserved, then they don't turn up. They have changed their mind, or can't be bothered. The only possible thing you can therefore do is offer those vaccines to others available, and that is down to local management. Some areas seem to be more on top of this than others, holding reserve lists for example, others are less efficient.

Why would you refuse the vaccine based on natural immunity or your ability to stay at home?

Natural immunity - we’ve no idea how long it lasts. Could be a years. Could be 6 months. Could be one month. It may vary between people. It may vary between mild v serious cases. If say it’s 6 months & you’ve refused when it’s your turn then you are clogging up the very complicated system of getting the country double vaccinated.

Ability to stay at home - even when you have the vaccine, you still have to follow the rules & stay at home. No vaccine is 100%. After one dose it’s effective is reported to range from 50-80%. Cases are still extremely high so even the scared & vulnerable at home must remain so. Maybe less scared but it doesn’t mean they can go out for a jolly, see family or get on with life. Again, by refusing a vaccine when offered, you are causing problems further down the line when you don’t fall into the expected numbers for the currently being vaccinated category,

It was never going to be perfect. There was always going to be some perceived ‘unfairness’ But for god sake, we’ve vaccinated 10% of the adult population. Stop nitpicking & celebrate the fact that anyone being vaccinated is a fucking relief. No-one needs to be a martyr, if you are pro-vaccine, get it when bloody offered.

Lemon TT who could I report it to? I didn't know this was even an option and it feels so wrong in light of the current climate I feel I must report it.

@Crakeandoryx

I know volunteers and back office staff are getting left over vaccine and I know some of these people have immunity and are young ages, no other health conditions. I already know of numbers nearing a hundred at least 20 of these people are also donating plasma. I'm saying people should decline them. I'm asking why is this happening in the first place.

Why are these vaccines going to this group on a daily basis when they could be given on end of day appointments to those clinically extremely vulnerable. It sits very badly with me.

Sadly the plasma trial has been shown to be ineffective. Additionally natural infection does not confer the same level of immunity that vaccination creates.